Fast reds

[Hatter97133]

Hello! Can anyone recommend any fast reds? I loved the red kali from dte and red hangat from tfh. Looking for something similar to those

[OTscoots]

Hello! Can anyone recommend any fast reds? I loved the red kali from dte and red hangat from tfh. Looking for something similar to those

Also interested in finding more similar to these! That hangat is my baby! Love a fast red

[Arob1000]

Hello! Can anyone recommend any fast reds? I loved the red kali from dte and red hangat from tfh. Looking for something similar to those

Those two are my favorite fast reds as well. Following this thread!

[Renob]

The Super Red MD from Liza’s best…

[Jfish030]

Fast reds? Just buy a green, seriously. Reds are low in mit, which means you can load up on the other akaloids because the lack of mit allows more of the other akaloids to bind to receptors. The mit gives the energy. Greens are higher in mit.

[PistolsAtDawn]

I would say find a red and a white that you like and blend them.

[Hatter97133]

I would say find a red and a white that you like and blend them.

I’m strange, when I blend red and white it’s slow for me. Even 1:1. It is my favorite to blend and most times it’s happy and warm blanket feelings. That’s what I do at night.

[Hatter97133]

Fast reds? Just buy a green, seriously. Reds are low in mit, which means you can load up on the other akaloids because the lack of mit allows more of the other akaloids to bind to receptors. The mit gives the energy. Greens are higher in mit.

I have plenty of greens haha I have fast greens, slow greens, mud greens. Fast reds are different. Less anxiety and more … something I can’t put into words. Have you tried a good fast red like red hangat tfh or red kali from dte???

Rainy seasons usually produce fast reds and mid to mid low greens.

[Madvillain626]

Fast reds? Just buy a green, seriously. Reds are low in mit, which means you can load up on the other akaloids because the lack of mit allows more of the other akaloids to bind to receptors. The mit gives the energy. Greens are higher in mit.

I have plenty of greens haha I have fast greens, slow greens, mud greens. Fast reds are different. Less anxiety and more … something I can’t put into words. Have you tried a good fast red like red hangat tfh or red kali from dte???

Rainy seasons usually produce fast reds and mid to mid low greens.

haha I know what you mean. The first batch of Red Krakatoa from Luckys was amazing, and I've heard good things about the Red Dragon. Good fast reds are rare tho

[Hatter97133]

I’m so upset I didn’t get more of dte’s red kali last time it dropped. It was sooo awesome and yeah definitely rare but when they come it’s magic ha

[WhiteAngelica]

Don't listen to just by a green. If you want a fast red like I do, get a fast red. I know I'm not delusional that reds slay my pain and greens just don't hit the same mark, for some reason. I'm a fast reds freak. My experience is that

Yep, the TFH Red Hangat Hulu, DTE Red Kali (I can't remember if it was Super, Premium or Wild but it was fast), That One Place's Super Red MD, Otie's Super RMD, Treasure House Botanicals Modern Maeng Da Red...I'll return to this thread with more.

[WhiteAngelica]

Fast reds? Just buy a green, seriously. Reds are low in mit, which means you can load up on the other akaloids because the lack of mit allows more of the other akaloids to bind to receptors. The mit gives the energy. Greens are higher in mit.

I have dickloads of high mit reds in my purchase playlist. Otie's, All natural Artisan, Benni's...and these are just the ones the list the mit. But I also got a sample of Benni's GMD at the mit was like, 2% and it was fast with an edge on it that didn't do the things reds do when they are fast. I literally am in pain that without kratom would have resulted in euthanasia because it is that intolerable. I take other strains with red on occasion but mostly reds and fast reds for day use. I am not a vendor and certainly no expert, but I have had ten years of testing kratom out on this body and it is red that helps. Greens have never--and there are greens I've taken that are blissful--but they've never put the same dent into pain as does a red. But enough about me--

OP wanted fast red suggestions and fast red suggestions OP shall receive. And the answers here are super beneficial for me too and will end up on some kind of master list for day kray.

[Madvillain626]

Lucky's Red Dragon is on stock and that's supposed to be a stimulating red.

[Madvillain626]

just a heads up DTE has new stock in and the Red Bunut is supposed to be a faster red. Have some on the way so can't vouch for it myself yet.

[Hatter97133]

just a heads up DTE has new stock in and the Red Bunut is supposed to be a faster red. Have some on the way so can't vouch for it myself yet.

Oh awesome my DTE is coming in the mail today!!!
I got the red bunut, green horn, and red Sumatra!

[WhiteAngelica]

There is a compilation blend between DTE and Bewitched Botanicals called Akasha. It is available on the Bewitched site. It's not all red, but a nice blend of DTE's Red MD, Bewitched GMD & Gold Bali. It's a balanced but very good day strain. Happy Hippo has Red Hot Hippo, Invisible Hippo,and Color me Pink...the first two are fast reds and of course a pink is red and white. It is worth it if you use the site to build up points and use those points on special discounts and freebies from Happy Hippo. Repeat, this is only a place for small orders and their larger quantities are unreasonable expensive.

Still vote, if you can dive into DTE reds in time before they all sell out, they are fast. Otherwise, Otie's, That One Place, Treasure House, and Liza's Super Red are fast ones. Back in the day,I used to get Plantation Red and RMD from Mmmmspeciosa and I tell you, my kitchen was sparkling clean and I, pain free. If TFH has the Hangat Hulu left pounce. I'm broke, but I know from the past and my kratom crew that these are some that fly fast and land hard.

[Jfish030]

Fast reds? Just buy a green, seriously. Reds are low in mit, which means you can load up on the other akaloids because the lack of mit allows more of the other akaloids to bind to receptors. The mit gives the energy. Greens are higher in mit.

I have dickloads of high mit reds in my purchase playlist. Otie's, All natural Artisan, Benni's...and these are just the ones the list the mit. But I also got a sample of Benni's GMD at the mit was like, 2% and it was fast with an edge on it that didn't do the things reds do when they are fast. I literally am in pain that without kratom would have resulted in euthanasia because it is that intolerable. I take other strains with red on occasion but mostly reds and fast reds for day use. I am not a vendor and certainly no expert, but I have had ten years of testing kratom out on this body and it is red that helps. Greens have never--and there are greens I've taken that are blissful--but they've never put the same dent into pain as does a red. But enough about me--

OP wanted fast red suggestions and fast red suggestions OP shall receive. And the answers here are super beneficial for me too and will end up on some kind of master list for day kray.

Have you ever tried extracts? What color vein are extracts? If you take more then normal amount of extracts do you get sedation and relief? If you take a small amount of extract do you get energy, alertness, good mood?

Im going to guess, All these really good reds, the powder is green, the mit is high. If you think people in indonesia are sorting leaves by color of vein you would be wrong. If you think the small batch farmer only harvests a small amount so he can make less money then his neighbor whos harvests as much as possible to sell to wholesalers and get paid everyday, you would probably have a very unique person.

The reason reds are reds, is the mit is typically low, the muscle relaxer alkaloids (the other akaloids) are still at high numbers. So your body can absorb more of the muscle relaxers, the mit tends to block recepators and blocks out the relief providing akaloids. Greens have higher mit, and the same or little more muscle relaxer akaloids. The mit in higher numbers takes over and you get mit effects more pronounced.

The vast amount of people ive talked to that take only reds, typically take atleast 30gpd on average, with some in the 80-100gram range. They complain if they take Greens they get sick. Its the mit that gets most people switching from reds to greens sick. If youve truely taking kratom for 10 years you probably fit into the category of person that kratom, it works, it doesnt work. If it doesnt work take a little more.

[Madvillain626]

bumping this thread to mention Super Red Rhino (E supplier) from Rhino Remedies. potent upper-mid red.

[Nelson Baboon]

bumping this thread to mention Super Red Rhino (E supplier) from Rhino Remedies. potent upper-mid red.

thanks for the recommendation. I have actually gone so crazy in the last month or so, buying up new drops from my favorite vendors, that i haven't even tried that one yet. I have some. sometimes the best inspiration is hearing someone here recommend it.

[Kelleytoons]

The vast amount of people ive talked to that take only reds, typically take atleast 30gpd on average, with some in the 80-100gram range. They complain if they take Greens they get sick. Its the mit that gets most people switching from reds to greens sick. If youve truely taking kratom for 10 years you probably fit into the category of person that kratom, it works, it doesnt work. If it doesnt work take a little more.

Since this thread got bumped up (and somehow I missed this the first time) I thought I'd reply - I know you personally have a thing against reds, but I have to say that here you are either full of BS or you just haven't talked with many folks. I know quite a few of people like myself who take reds predominantly and yet keep our doses low (I'm at around 6gpd - sometimes as high as 8) and yet love our reds.

I won't address anything else you say - all I can speak is from personal experience. But reds are my go-to for pain relief AND nighttime relaxation. No white or green I've used can match that. Perhaps this is one of those situations that kratom is far more than just mit percentages (it has to be, because extracts don't have the same effects even at much higher doses). Until actual science is applied to the study of this leaf (and very little is) we'll never really know.

[RedWhiteAndGreen]

Hello! Can anyone recommend any fast reds? I loved the red kali from dte and red hangat from tfh. Looking for something similar to those

You may find Top Shelf Red MD from TFH to be faster than most reds if you haven't tried it.

[Valikth]

The vast amount of people ive talked to that take only reds, typically take atleast 30gpd on average, with some in the 80-100gram range. They complain if they take Greens they get sick. Its the mit that gets most people switching from reds to greens sick. If youve truely taking kratom for 10 years you probably fit into the category of person that kratom, it works, it doesnt work. If it doesnt work take a little more.

This is me. I take almost exclusively..reds.
And im at about 30gpd
And also ya. Often when i take greens..i puke
So this totally described me

[BallzDeep9]

Here's the logical, and TRUE, explanation and advice for the "Reds issue" ~ Colors And Batches! ~ NOT "Strains and Veins".

Color of powder... IS the important thing. Not the "Label" name used by Vendor. "Green Reds" ?? Lots of people really like Reds, which are Green in color. Ignore the Label...it's a Green.

Color explains the observations - and experiences - regarding Alkaloid Profiles, Sun drying oxidation VS Indoor, Air drying - better than any Label: Red Bali or whatever... that we know is fake lol. Color is objective. "Fast or Slow" is subjective... One guy says Slow, another guy says Fast lol...

Which vendors have clear, color photo's under bright light, of each "Strain" on their website ? AND ~ I have seen ONE vendor... who uses a super bright, expensive, Light Table setup to carefully examine each Batch Color, and compare to other batches... that vendor is TFH. However they also use Consumer Testing - to name each batch.

[Jfish030]

The vast amount of people ive talked to that take only reds, typically take atleast 30gpd on average, with some in the 80-100gram range. They complain if they take Greens they get sick. Its the mit that gets most people switching from reds to greens sick. If youve truely taking kratom for 10 years you probably fit into the category of person that kratom, it works, it doesnt work. If it doesnt work take a little more.

Since this thread got bumped up (and somehow I missed this the first time) I thought I'd reply - I know you personally have a thing against reds, but I have to say that here you are either full of BS or you just haven't talked with many folks. I know quite a few of people like myself who take reds predominantly and yet keep our doses low (I'm at around 6gpd - sometimes as high as 8) and yet love our reds.

I won't address anything else you say - all I can speak is from personal experience. But reds are my go-to for pain relief AND nighttime relaxation. No white or green I've used can match that. Perhaps this is one of those situations that kratom is far more than just mit percentages (it has to be, because extracts don't have the same effects even at much higher doses). Until actual science is applied to the study of this leaf (and very little is) we'll never really know.

Maybe some miscommunication but above where i said this "The reason reds are reds, is the mit is typically low, the muscle relaxer alkaloids (the other akaloids) are still at high numbers. So your body can absorb more of the muscle relaxers, the mit tends to block recepators and blocks out the relief providing akaloids. Greens have higher mit, and the same or little more muscle relaxer akaloids. The mit in higher numbers takes over and you get mit effects more pronounced. "

Its refering to how the reason reds are great for pain and sedation is that the muscle relaxers get to work more together with the mit. When you flood the brain with MIT (greens, high mit) the muscle relaxers have no where to bind to, the receptors are all full. That second line i said previously was suppose to mention greens (high mit, blocks out the relief providing akaloids). And i normally say Red color is Red strain, because the drying method outdoor sundried oxidies the leaves and lowers the mit, but the other akaloids are normally not broken down so they stay a same levels. Leading to a low mit and normal additional akaloids.

Ive been preaching for 1-2 years now how the additional alkaloids actually shape the kratom experience, but the problem is mit at different amounts produces different effects (from energy/stimulation all the way to sedation at high amounts). The only effect that is constant is the more mit you take the less receptors for the additional alkaloids to bind to so at max mit your going to have the same experience for all. (probably extreme sedation and slowed heart rate.) Which has been studied on rats when they tried to find the lethal amount.

The problem is people that like fast reds, that are green powder. That is what i consider a green strain. Some vendors market that as a red. The reason people do this is because almost everyone new into kratom reads reds are best for pain and most people switching to kratom were using something for pain. So your entry point into kratom is typically mostly red purchases. Most humans either like stimulation or sedation effects, some like to play with both but most people are uppers or downers. If you want to sell the best red you play both sides and market to both as a red.

With kratom the active alkaloid is mitragynine, after years of usage you do get attached to that mit. Greens typically have more mit then reds, so most consumers eventually switch to greens/whites. Some people have real reasons for using kratom like relief or other issues, they dont normally switch to greens because they body wants that relief instead of chasing mit. The problem is when someone is using alot of powder per day (not healthy nor safe) because some of them are actually chasing the mit when they could switch and lower amounts used and get good effects from greens.

Reading labs and understanding the alkaloids, or the amount of alkaloids your in-taking can do wonders for getting you in the area of finding kratom that works best for you. There's more work industry wide on getting the powder more consistent per batch/lab test and making sure people keep labs updated but i think things will become more clear as the kratom continues.

[terposton]

The vast amount of people ive talked to that take only reds, typically take atleast 30gpd on average, with some in the 80-100gram range. They complain if they take Greens they get sick. Its the mit that gets most people switching from reds to greens sick. If youve truely taking kratom for 10 years you probably fit into the category of person that kratom, it works, it doesnt work. If it doesnt work take a little more.

Since this thread got bumped up (and somehow I missed this the first time) I thought I'd reply - I know you personally have a thing against reds, but I have to say that here you are either full of BS or you just haven't talked with many folks. I know quite a few of people like myself who take reds predominantly and yet keep our doses low (I'm at around 6gpd - sometimes as high as 8) and yet love our reds.

I won't address anything else you say - all I can speak is from personal experience. But reds are my go-to for pain relief AND nighttime relaxation. No white or green I've used can match that. Perhaps this is one of those situations that kratom is far more than just mit percentages (it has to be, because extracts don't have the same effects even at much higher doses). Until actual science is applied to the study of this leaf (and very little is) we'll never really know.

Maybe some miscommunication but above where i said this "The reason reds are reds, is the mit is typically low, the muscle relaxer alkaloids (the other akaloids) are still at high numbers. So your body can absorb more of the muscle relaxers, the mit tends to block recepators and blocks out the relief providing akaloids. Greens have higher mit, and the same or little more muscle relaxer akaloids. The mit in higher numbers takes over and you get mit effects more pronounced. "

Its refering to how the reason reds are great for pain and sedation is that the muscle relaxers get to work more together with the mit. When you flood the brain with MIT (greens, high mit) the muscle relaxers have no where to bind to, the receptors are all full. That second line i said previously was suppose to mention greens (high mit, blocks out the relief providing akaloids). And i normally say Red color is Red strain, because the drying method outdoor sundried oxidies the leaves and lowers the mit, but the other akaloids are normally not broken down so they stay a same levels. Leading to a low mit and normal additional akaloids.

Ive been preaching for 1-2 years now how the additional alkaloids actually shape the kratom experience, but the problem is mit at different amounts produces different effects (from energy/stimulation all the way to sedation at high amounts). The only effect that is constant is the more mit you take the less receptors for the additional alkaloids to bind to so at max mit your going to have the same experience for all. (probably extreme sedation and slowed heart rate.) Which has been studied on rats when they tried to find the lethal amount.

The problem is people that like fast reds, that are green powder. That is what i consider a green strain. Some vendors market that as a red. The reason people do this is because almost everyone new into kratom reads reds are best for pain and most people switching to kratom were using something for pain. So your entry point into kratom is typically mostly red purchases. Most humans either like stimulation or sedation effects, some like to play with both but most people are uppers or downers. If you want to sell the best red you play both sides and market to both as a red.

With kratom the active alkaloid is mitragynine, after years of usage you do get attached to that mit. Greens typically have more mit then reds, so most consumers eventually switch to greens/whites. Some people have real reasons for using kratom like relief or other issues, they dont normally switch to greens because they body wants that relief instead of chasing mit. The problem is when someone is using alot of powder per day (not healthy nor safe) because some of them are actually chasing the mit when they could switch and lower amounts used and get good effects from greens.

Reading labs and understanding the alkaloids, or the amount of alkaloids your in-taking can do wonders for getting you in the area of finding kratom that works best for you. There's more work industry wide on getting the powder more consistent per batch/lab test and making sure people keep labs updated but i think things will become more clear as the kratom continues.

Thanks Jonathan for everything you do as both a vendor and as someone who knows much more about kratom than people that have only been using kratom a few short years.

[Kelleytoons]

some of them are actually chasing the mit when they could switch and lower amounts used and get good effects from greens.

Sorry, TL:DR (well, sort of skimmed) but essentially you are presenting the same thing - that there is no need for reds (you qualify it as "some" people but let's face it, you don't sell reds so you don't like them).

I use them all - reds, whites, greens and from some of the biggies (I'm a member of TFH and Denette) and I still think you're full of it. Yes, I know quite well there are "reds" that aren't reds, but honestly, there are very specific red effects you cannot get any other way. I know this from long experimentation - and if you feel different it's only YOUR experience (as it is mine). There's no real science behind this, of course (we don't have ANY studies on kratom that can differentiate these things).

I ESPECIALLY like mixing greens with reds - get the euphoria from the green, and the pain relief from the reds. Neither counteracts the other, they both blend extremely well. NO other way to get that, not with any green there is.

[Jfish030]

some of them are actually chasing the mit when they could switch and lower amounts used and get good effects from greens.

Sorry, TL:DR (well, sort of skimmed) but essentially you are presenting the same thing - that there is no need for reds (you qualify it as "some" people but let's face it, you don't sell reds so you don't like them).

I use them all - reds, whites, greens and from some of the biggies (I'm a member of TFH and Denette) and I still think you're full of it. Yes, I know quite well there are "reds" that aren't reds, but honestly, there are very specific red effects you cannot get any other way. I know this from long experimentation - and if you feel different it's only YOUR experience (as it is mine). There's no real science behind this, of course (we don't have ANY studies on kratom that can differentiate these things).

I ESPECIALLY like mixing greens with reds - get the euphoria from the green, and the pain relief from the reds. Neither counteracts the other, they both blend extremely well. NO other way to get that, not with any green there is.

I sell reds. The "some" is people that truly want the relief without additional side effects depending on their condition would seek out lower levels of mit to the get the muscle relaxer effects more. If TFH or Denette want to chime in an explain why that red works the way it works for you they are more then welcome. Or why if you mix in Green you get energy, but if you mix in too much green you dont get the relief. Im just saying forget the color and names. The active alkaloids your in taking lead to the outcome. If your taking alot of mit the other akaloids play less of a role then when your at lower levels of mit.

If you want to do research on your own to get your own opionion just research each akaloid. Mitragynine, Paynantheine, Speciociliatine, Speciogynine, Mitraphylline, Isorhynchophylline, 7-Hydroxymitragynine. Then look at your suppliers labs and look at how much, and the ratio and then how that strain effects you. I will give you the heads up from my excel spreadsheet with hundreds of labs collected from various vendors. Real Reds typically have a higher ratio of Paynantheine to Mitragynine compared to a green strain.

[Kelleytoons]

Yeah I don't think it's that easy and I don't think you do, either (or, if you do you don't know as much about kratom as you seem to think you do).

It's VERY clear that kratom's effects are synergistic - and VERY particular from individual to individual (thus probably a synergism of body chemistry as well). This is why those of us who have made extracts know there is something "left" even after all the alkaloids have been extracted, and that *something* is key to the entire kratom powder existance.

Thus no amount of research or looking up of individual numbers will tell you whether a particular batch is good for you or not. It's a bit like a movie production - you can't tell how good a movie will be from the quality of the actors, writing and directing because something happens between all of those things that ends up giving a movie its particular quality. And it also doesn't mean that everyone will like a movie no matter how good the individual parts that make it up will be NOR how well others like it. In the end there is magic that just can't be accounted for.

So - I wish folks would stop talking about this or that percentage, or even what color is this or that. Just tell me what BATCH they enjoyed and how it affected THEM. For certain folks whose chemistry appears to match mine this is as good as indicator as it gets. All the rest is just mumbo jumbo.

[boureka]

...Kelley , this makes me wonder...
....something slightly topic adjacent
How are they ever going to mass market kratom once it becomes fully recognized as safe and legal? I believe it will happen. With a querulous physiology like mine, I need lots and lots and lots of variety with constant novelty. That's why I depend on new batches and multi vendors. Yeah, I need variety in, say, ice cream too..but it's not the same. I can rotate among a few favorites with a new flavor thrown in here and there. Not so with kratom... constantly need new and (ideally) only return to the old after a lonnng break.
BTW, I keep abusing my kratom "privileges" and need yet another break. There's simply not enough novelty to keep my burns going if I use kratom regularly.

[Sityice]

I feel like I just learned a lot

[Kelleytoons]

I suspect a mass market is going to be a mess, at least at first (and perhaps it will take a decade or two to straighten out. By which time I'll be long gone so my caring level is pretty low). About the only thing we can compare it with is grass, which is not the same thing at all since folks can easily grow their own. I really don't have a clue how they will even start to keep things straight.

Don't forget blends - you can, even with say a few dozen basic batches, make up hundreds of different blends. That ought to "fool" your body pretty well. There's SO much variety and different ways to blend things, from mixing and matching colors to vendors to effects that I suspect you could go for quite some time never needing something "new". I use capsules so it slightly restricts the possibilities, but with powder almost anything is possible.

[Jfish030]

...Kelley , this makes me wonder...
....something slightly topic adjacent
How are they ever going to mass market kratom once it becomes fully recognized as safe and legal? I believe it will happen. With a querulous physiology like mine, I need lots and lots and lots of variety with constant novelty. That's why I depend on new batches and multi vendors. Yeah, I need variety in, say, ice cream too..but it's not the same. I can rotate among a few favorites with a new flavor thrown in here and there. Not so with kratom... constantly need new and (ideally) only return to the old after a lonnng break.
BTW, I keep abusing my kratom "privileges" and need yet another break. There's simply not enough novelty to keep my burns going if I use kratom regularly.

Mass marketed kratom will be all standardized batches. They will make the product consistent by enhancing the powders. So that way its the same every time. If they do the red,white,green. Each color will have specific levels of alkaloids to produce different effects to the majority of the users.

I agree about varying product as i also tell others to switch it up. Its just weird almost every other thing consumed most people stick to the same thing. The same cigs smoked for years, the same soda.

With extracts though most people can take the same extract for as long as they have it and be happy. Maybe using a little more because of tolerance build up but its not a batch vs batch switch. I think with kratom plain powders the placebo effect does account for 10-20% of each person results. The idea of taking something new does help the kratom user.

[terposton]

I feel like I just learned a lot

You will learn a lot from JFish. I would be careful with advice or take with a grain of salt from at least one who post a lot but has only been using kratom 2 or 3 years. JFish and Ballz along with a few others who have been on this forum since it began 2018 are very knowledgeable.

[terposton]

Yeah I don't think it's that easy and I don't think you do, either (or, if you do you don't know as much about kratom as you seem to think you do).

It's VERY clear that kratom's effects are synergistic - and VERY particular from individual to individual (thus probably a synergism of body chemistry as well). This is why those of us who have made extracts know there is something "left" even after all the alkaloids have been extracted, and that *something* is key to the entire kratom powder existance.

Thus no amount of research or looking up of individual numbers will tell you whether a particular batch is good for you or not. It's a bit like a movie production - you can't tell how good a movie will be from the quality of the actors, writing and directing because something happens between all of those things that ends up giving a movie its particular quality. And it also doesn't mean that everyone will like a movie no matter how good the individual parts that make it up will be NOR how well others like it. In the end there is magic that just can't be accounted for.

So - I wish folks would stop talking about this or that percentage, or even what color is this or that. Just tell me what BATCH they enjoyed and how it affected THEM. For certain folks whose chemistry appears to match mine this is as good as indicator as it gets. All the rest is just mumbo jumbo.

I didn't mean to repost Kelleytoons. I meant to respond. Nevermind.

[KD1880]

Ruby red Thai from happy hippo is great. Great pain relief and a gentle type of fast. Nice clean energy to it and it lasts long too. Doesn't take much either.