Double M Herbals | Kratom Forum

Kelleytoons wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:17 pm LOL - my daughter is about your age.

If if were as young as you I could rule the world (a bit too late for that now, however :>).

Eu4oric906 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:02 pm Just curious how hard core people are over lab results. I was looking over a 3rd party lab report for a popular vendors latest batch and saw like 0.3 ppm arsenic and like 0.4 ppm for lead.

Kelleytoons wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:17 pm LOL - my daughter is about your age.

If if were as young as you I could rule the world (a bit too late for that now, however :>).

kwest13 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:32 pm You are the dad of a 53 year old??! You are active on here, speak perfectly, and play tennis? Do you have superman genes?

dimmitree wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:12 pm Well, if I understand correctly that ppm to ug/g are the same, there are .3ug in 1 g of kratom from their test results. You can have 10ug of lead per day in supplements, so even my hefty daily dose of 15-20g still falls under the recommended daily maximum in supplements. Unless you're taking over an oz, those test results shouldn't worry you. Just stick to trustworthy vendors and you will be fine. I'd be more worried about the water we're drinking these days than the kratom we're taking.

Detuned wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:20 am @kelleytoons May i ask how Old you are exactly?

coldshowersuperpower wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:44 pm I'm a bit of a data enthusiast, so I keep track of all reported contaminants for the batches I buy or consider buying. After doing some research on intake levels, it seems that, at common levels of consumption, the main contaminant to keep track of with kratom is lead (aside from the bio stuff, that's a separate topic). The other contaminants (well, the ones commonly reported on the CoAs) don't seem to ever be reported at significant levels (ok, with some very rare exceptions). 0.3ppm of arsenic is nothing to worry about (even if you take large amounts, other things will likely become an issue much sooner than that amount of arsenic). 0.4ppm of lead seems slightly below average levels based on the labs I reviewed so far.

Even on the topic of lead, it's not cut and dry; it's hard to say if it really matters all that much for adults unless you're pregnant or are breastfeeding (or, again, taking huge amounts). I'm not a doctor or a medical researcher, but my limited inquiry seemed to indicate that mcg-level (0.4ppm is 0.4mcg per gram) variations in daily lead consumption are meaningful and can have material health implications. Based on that and my lab reading, lead seems to always be present in kratom in meaningful amounts and it's something I recommend to everyone to try to minimize. Not saying that batches with higher ppms should be avoided, but, personally, I would at least try to mix them with lower-lead batches to minimize the daily total intake. I personally never buy batches without CoAs for this reason.

There are lots of other variables, including testing procedures, etc. So it's hard to make conclusive judgments on this topic. The one thing that's clear is that, as BallzDeep9 said above, lower levels of consumption are always going to be safer.

coldshowersuperpower wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:44 pm I'm a bit of a data enthusiast, so I keep track of all reported contaminants for the batches I buy or consider buying. After doing some research on intake levels, it seems that, at common levels of consumption, the main contaminant to keep track of with kratom is lead (aside from the bio stuff, that's a separate topic). The other contaminants (well, the ones commonly reported on the CoAs) don't seem to ever be reported at significant levels (ok, with some very rare exceptions). 0.3ppm of arsenic is nothing to worry about (even if you take large amounts, other things will likely become an issue much sooner than that amount of arsenic). 0.4ppm of lead seems slightly below average levels based on the labs I reviewed so far.

Even on the topic of lead, it's not cut and dry; it's hard to say if it really matters all that much for adults unless you're pregnant or are breastfeeding (or, again, taking huge amounts). I'm not a doctor or a medical researcher, but my limited inquiry seemed to indicate that mcg-level (0.4ppm is 0.4mcg per gram) variations in daily lead consumption are meaningful and can have material health implications. Based on that and my lab reading, lead seems to always be present in kratom in meaningful amounts and it's something I recommend to everyone to try to minimize. Not saying that batches with higher ppms should be avoided, but, personally, I would at least try to mix them with lower-lead batches to minimize the daily total intake. I personally never buy batches without CoAs for this reason.

There are lots of other variables, including testing procedures, etc. So it's hard to make conclusive judgments on this topic. The one thing that's clear is that, as BallzDeep9 said above, lower levels of consumption are always going to be safer.

Jfish030 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:27 pm Lead slows and breaks down neurological receptors. No amount of lead is good. The problem is there's lead in everything. So they make the limits based on the fact that leads in everything and if your diet includes a small sliver of herbal supplements it should be a small amount of lead proportional to your entire intake of daily lead. Your taking lead in everyday from everything you consume,drink, or breathe sometimes. They used to have leaded gasoline but lets not go into that lol.

uspatriot995 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 3:20 pm

Jfish030 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:27 pm Lead slows and breaks down neurological receptors. No amount of lead is good. The problem is there's lead in everything. So they make the limits based on the fact that leads in everything and if your diet includes a small sliver of herbal supplements it should be a small amount of lead proportional to your entire intake of daily lead. Your taking lead in everyday from everything you consume,drink, or breathe sometimes. They used to have leaded gasoline but lets not go into that lol.

Right. Lead is NFG at all. Would you comment on Mycotoxins as they relate to kratom, daily intake, your thoughts/experience?

Thanks.

Jfish030 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:13 pm

uspatriot995 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 3:20 pm

Jfish030 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:27 pm Lead slows and breaks down neurological receptors. No amount of lead is good. The problem is there's lead in everything. So they make the limits based on the fact that leads in everything and if your diet includes a small sliver of herbal supplements it should be a small amount of lead proportional to your entire intake of daily lead. Your taking lead in everyday from everything you consume,drink, or breathe sometimes. They used to have leaded gasoline but lets not go into that lol.

Right. Lead is NFG at all. Would you comment on Mycotoxins as they relate to kratom, daily intake, your thoughts/experience?

Thanks.

Stay away from the super moist looking stuff. The people that rave over mega clumps and super fresh powder are just looking at kratom that normally wasn't dried long enough. Sun dried kratom used to be how all kratom was produced. It was done because drying other herbs that way allowed it to dry fully and the uv light from the sun killed off bacteria and mold. There is nothing wrong with indoor dried kratom its just there is more risk the producer can mess it up unknowingly.

Most kratom from reliable suppliers is treated in some form, heat treated or irradation. Both have their own pros and cons but they both disinfect the powder so to speak. If stored in the USA in a climate controlled warehouse/building and the humidity is watched your looking a no issues. The people storing kratom in sheds/garages/storage units, your getting a whole lot of humidity that can get the molds/fungi growing/growing again.

We haven't heard much for mycotoxins with kratom powder, but if produced and stored improperly anything could happen i suppose. Over the years talking to the lab companies we have used. You just heard alot about ecoli,salmonella and lead from the lab workers related to kratom. Many lab companies have grown a sizeable share of business solely from kratom testing. What was once on the hush hush we will test your kratom has now come to the point where many big name lab companies publish their kratom testing services on their websites. They all offer packages for kratom testing and mycotoxins are not in them, even on the safety+ options. I would say little to no concern from the general kratom industry after this many years.

uspatriot995 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:27 pm

coldshowersuperpower wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:44 pm I'm a bit of a data enthusiast, so I keep track of all reported contaminants for the batches I buy or consider buying. After doing some research on intake levels, it seems that, at common levels of consumption, the main contaminant to keep track of with kratom is lead (aside from the bio stuff, that's a separate topic). The other contaminants (well, the ones commonly reported on the CoAs) don't seem to ever be reported at significant levels (ok, with some very rare exceptions). 0.3ppm of arsenic is nothing to worry about (even if you take large amounts, other things will likely become an issue much sooner than that amount of arsenic). 0.4ppm of lead seems slightly below average levels based on the labs I reviewed so far.

Even on the topic of lead, it's not cut and dry; it's hard to say if it really matters all that much for adults unless you're pregnant or are breastfeeding (or, again, taking huge amounts). I'm not a doctor or a medical researcher, but my limited inquiry seemed to indicate that mcg-level (0.4ppm is 0.4mcg per gram) variations in daily lead consumption are meaningful and can have material health implications. Based on that and my lab reading, lead seems to always be present in kratom in meaningful amounts and it's something I recommend to everyone to try to minimize. Not saying that batches with higher ppms should be avoided, but, personally, I would at least try to mix them with lower-lead batches to minimize the daily total intake. I personally never buy batches without CoAs for this reason.

There are lots of other variables, including testing procedures, etc. So it's hard to make conclusive judgments on this topic. The one thing that's clear is that, as BallzDeep9 said above, lower levels of consumption are always going to be safer.

Yeah I like when I see around .300 ppm on the labs for lead. Also, someone in another thread (I think the wobbles thread) brought up the issue of Mycotoxins. I had never heard of them and then I did a wikipedia search and man, they are scary for sure. Basically bad fungii in "dietary supplements" is one of the things listed. Not sure if this could be added to the labs they do, but it seems like it could certainly be present, depending. This is also where storage methods comes in - sealed/vacuum packed, or just in a bag, etc. Also shipping from suppliers. If you have any doubts about the practices of farmers/growers/suppliers, check out Chris' thread on deep dive into kratom. It's an eye opener. Don't like to be paranoid (it kills my burn) but I seriously appreciate vendors who go through the trouble and expense of testing batches. And actually, the lead content is the first thing I look at, then the MIT and other levels. Lead over .700ppm is usually a no go for me. Of course I'm sure I ate lead paint chips off my porch of my house when I was a child I much prefer my heavy metals on my stereo.

kittykatkratom wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:21 am

uspatriot995 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:27 pm

coldshowersuperpower wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:44 pm I'm a bit of a data enthusiast, so I keep track of all reported contaminants for the batches I buy or consider buying. After doing some research on intake levels, it seems that, at common levels of consumption, the main contaminant to keep track of with kratom is lead (aside from the bio stuff, that's a separate topic). The other contaminants (well, the ones commonly reported on the CoAs) don't seem to ever be reported at significant levels (ok, with some very rare exceptions). 0.3ppm of arsenic is nothing to worry about (even if you take large amounts, other things will likely become an issue much sooner than that amount of arsenic). 0.4ppm of lead seems slightly below average levels based on the labs I reviewed so far.

Even on the topic of lead, it's not cut and dry; it's hard to say if it really matters all that much for adults unless you're pregnant or are breastfeeding (or, again, taking huge amounts). I'm not a doctor or a medical researcher, but my limited inquiry seemed to indicate that mcg-level (0.4ppm is 0.4mcg per gram) variations in daily lead consumption are meaningful and can have material health implications. Based on that and my lab reading, lead seems to always be present in kratom in meaningful amounts and it's something I recommend to everyone to try to minimize. Not saying that batches with higher ppms should be avoided, but, personally, I would at least try to mix them with lower-lead batches to minimize the daily total intake. I personally never buy batches without CoAs for this reason.

There are lots of other variables, including testing procedures, etc. So it's hard to make conclusive judgments on this topic. The one thing that's clear is that, as BallzDeep9 said above, lower levels of consumption are always going to be safer.

Yeah I like when I see around .300 ppm on the labs for lead. Also, someone in another thread (I think the wobbles thread) brought up the issue of Mycotoxins. I had never heard of them and then I did a wikipedia search and man, they are scary for sure. Basically bad fungii in "dietary supplements" is one of the things listed. Not sure if this could be added to the labs they do, but it seems like it could certainly be present, depending. This is also where storage methods comes in - sealed/vacuum packed, or just in a bag, etc. Also shipping from suppliers. If you have any doubts about the practices of farmers/growers/suppliers, check out Chris' thread on deep dive into kratom. It's an eye opener. Don't like to be paranoid (it kills my burn) but I seriously appreciate vendors who go through the trouble and expense of testing batches. And actually, the lead content is the first thing I look at, then the MIT and other levels. Lead over .700ppm is usually a no go for me. Of course I'm sure I ate lead paint chips off my porch of my house when I was a child I much prefer my heavy metals on my stereo.

You mention .700ppm+ being a no go for you and only wanting to buy from vendors who certified lab tests. I'm am right there with ya! So I'm wondering what vendors do you buy from that have heavy metal labs available?

kittykatkratom wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:21 am

uspatriot995 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:27 pm

coldshowersuperpower wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:44 pm I'm a bit of a data enthusiast, so I keep track of all reported contaminants for the batches I buy or consider buying. After doing some research on intake levels, it seems that, at common levels of consumption, the main contaminant to keep track of with kratom is lead (aside from the bio stuff, that's a separate topic). The other contaminants (well, the ones commonly reported on the CoAs) don't seem to ever be reported at significant levels (ok, with some very rare exceptions). 0.3ppm of arsenic is nothing to worry about (even if you take large amounts, other things will likely become an issue much sooner than that amount of arsenic). 0.4ppm of lead seems slightly below average levels based on the labs I reviewed so far.

Even on the topic of lead, it's not cut and dry; it's hard to say if it really matters all that much for adults unless you're pregnant or are breastfeeding (or, again, taking huge amounts). I'm not a doctor or a medical researcher, but my limited inquiry seemed to indicate that mcg-level (0.4ppm is 0.4mcg per gram) variations in daily lead consumption are meaningful and can have material health implications. Based on that and my lab reading, lead seems to always be present in kratom in meaningful amounts and it's something I recommend to everyone to try to minimize. Not saying that batches with higher ppms should be avoided, but, personally, I would at least try to mix them with lower-lead batches to minimize the daily total intake. I personally never buy batches without CoAs for this reason.

There are lots of other variables, including testing procedures, etc. So it's hard to make conclusive judgments on this topic. The one thing that's clear is that, as BallzDeep9 said above, lower levels of consumption are always going to be safer.

Yeah I like when I see around .300 ppm on the labs for lead. Also, someone in another thread (I think the wobbles thread) brought up the issue of Mycotoxins. I had never heard of them and then I did a wikipedia search and man, they are scary for sure. Basically bad fungii in "dietary supplements" is one of the things listed. Not sure if this could be added to the labs they do, but it seems like it could certainly be present, depending. This is also where storage methods comes in - sealed/vacuum packed, or just in a bag, etc. Also shipping from suppliers. If you have any doubts about the practices of farmers/growers/suppliers, check out Chris' thread on deep dive into kratom. It's an eye opener. Don't like to be paranoid (it kills my burn) but I seriously appreciate vendors who go through the trouble and expense of testing batches. And actually, the lead content is the first thing I look at, then the MIT and other levels. Lead over .700ppm is usually a no go for me. Of course I'm sure I ate lead paint chips off my porch of my house when I was a child I much prefer my heavy metals on my stereo.

You mention .700ppm+ being a no go for you and only wanting to buy from vendors who certified lab tests. I'm am right there with ya! So I'm wondering what vendors do you buy from that have heavy metal labs available?

uspatriot995 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 12:06 pm

kittykatkratom wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:21 am

uspatriot995 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:27 pm

Yeah I like when I see around .300 ppm on the labs for lead. Also, someone in another thread (I think the wobbles thread) brought up the issue of Mycotoxins. I had never heard of them and then I did a wikipedia search and man, they are scary for sure. Basically bad fungii in "dietary supplements" is one of the things listed. Not sure if this could be added to the labs they do, but it seems like it could certainly be present, depending. This is also where storage methods comes in - sealed/vacuum packed, or just in a bag, etc. Also shipping from suppliers. If you have any doubts about the practices of farmers/growers/suppliers, check out Chris' thread on deep dive into kratom. It's an eye opener. Don't like to be paranoid (it kills my burn) but I seriously appreciate vendors who go through the trouble and expense of testing batches. And actually, the lead content is the first thing I look at, then the MIT and other levels. Lead over .700ppm is usually a no go for me. Of course I'm sure I ate lead paint chips off my porch of my house when I was a child I much prefer my heavy metals on my stereo.

You mention .700ppm+ being a no go for you and only wanting to buy from vendors who certified lab tests. I'm am right there with ya! So I'm wondering what vendors do you buy from that have heavy metal labs available?

You will have to look around, watch here for vendors and see if they have websites, etc. Usually they will have a section with lab reports, or it's a picture that is included with the strain or batch. Not all do this. Smallbatch is like that. Some non-membership sites post labs, just an example would be Fused Flora, and Herbal RVA, Okies/Oties also I believe.

Lucky Herbals is member-only but I think they are having an open even soon. They post labs, as do many others, you just have to look around and do your research.

The .300 ppm lead is just an arbitrary number for me. I like to see it at or below that, but I have burned leaf with higher lead than that!

From what I gather, much of the food we eat and the water we drink has some heavy metals in them.

I just prefer my heavy metal to come from my stereo not my food/water/leaf. Heh.

Jfish030 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:33 pm Tap water has alot of lead in it. The pipes that transfer the water to your faucet, alot of them are metal pipes. They leech into the water.
PVC is the another type used. Those well we dont know what leeches into water, we may find out in the future.

Rich people drink out of glass bottles for what its worth lol.

Eu4oric906 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:02 pm Just curious how hard core people are over lab results. I was looking over a 3rd party lab report for a popular vendors latest batch and saw like 0.3 ppm arsenic and like 0.4 ppm for lead. Obviously they proudly publish said results but not sure how concerned i should be when i see hits for contaminants. Figured this would be a good place to ask.

Eu4oric906 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:02 pm Just curious how hard core people are over lab results. I was looking over a 3rd party lab report for a popular vendors latest batch and saw like 0.3 ppm arsenic and like 0.4 ppm for lead. Obviously they proudly publish said results but not sure how concerned i should be when i see hits for contaminants. Figured this would be a good place to ask.

Bestboy143 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:32 pm

Eu4oric906 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:02 pm Just curious how hard core people are over lab results. I was looking over a 3rd party lab report for a popular vendors latest batch and saw like 0.3 ppm arsenic and like 0.4 ppm for lead. Obviously they proudly publish said results but not sure how concerned i should be when i see hits for contaminants. Figured this would be a good place to ask.

It's been a long time so I can't give you the numbers. I remember looking into this when the FDA and media was pushing heavy metals as another added danger for kratom. At first I was worried. After looking it up, the number they put up were laughable. I remember seeing green teas with higher levels. Basically just like everything else. I don't think kratom drying out on the sidewalks of a third world country is helping the numbers either. Plus the milling factories in Indonesia probably loading it with extra contaminants too. Would be cool to get some American production going. I'm surprised no one has started farms here.

Roofdog wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:47 pm

Bestboy143 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:32 pm

Eu4oric906 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:02 pm Just curious how hard core people are over lab results. I was looking over a 3rd party lab report for a popular vendors latest batch and saw like 0.3 ppm arsenic and like 0.4 ppm for lead. Obviously they proudly publish said results but not sure how concerned i should be when i see hits for contaminants. Figured this would be a good place to ask.

It's been a long time so I can't give you the numbers. I remember looking into this when the FDA and media was pushing heavy metals as another added danger for kratom. At first I was worried. After looking it up, the number they put up were laughable. I remember seeing green teas with higher levels. Basically just like everything else. I don't think kratom drying out on the sidewalks of a third world country is helping the numbers either. Plus the milling factories in Indonesia probably loading it with extra contaminants too. Would be cool to get some American production going. I'm surprised no one has started farms here.

I dont want to think about what the numbers would be if they tested our food. Ect. That maybe scary as well.