Herb Research (vendor) in the modern era?

[Adamantius]

Has anyone purchased from Ethan at Herb Research recently?

They were a major vendor a decade ago, but I haven’t heard much about them recently. It looks like I can still log in to their site, but things seem halfway pricey. Does anyone still use them?

I remember some stand-out products like Sunda, but it was relatively expensive even for that time.

[Roofdog]

Has anyone purchased from Ethan at Herb Research recently?

They were a major vendor a decade ago, but I haven’t heard much about them recently. It looks like I can still log in to their site, but things seem halfway pricey. Does anyone still use them?

I remember some stand-out products like Sunda, but it was relatively expensive even for that time.

I reached out to them for login access a couple times with no response. Not sure.

[szygzy]

Same here... Used them for years back in the day. Website is up but no ability to sign in with my old credentials.

[Adamantius]

I was able to reset my password, sign in, and order. It actually showed up too, so apparently things are still flowing.

He brought the very first Maeng Da and Sunda to market, so definitely a classic. Not to mention the FAS he supplied Speciosa Specialists for their legendary original tincture...

[MikeEdoessomething]

I was able to reset my password, sign in, and order. It actually showed up too, so apparently things are still flowing.

He brought the very first Maeng Da and Sunda to market, so definitely a classic. Not to mention the FAS he supplied Speciosa Specialists for their legendary original tincture...

Can anyone request to become a member? I was lucky to have been able to bought some of Herb Research Vintage strains over the years (2012/2013) and their vintage leaf is so unique. Potent Indo and Red Vein Thai and Red kali are sure fire hits when I dose the little I have left.

Wonder how his current leaf is compared to today's other vendors/market. Are their prices still insanely high (at the time in 2012/2013 I could understand the pricing, wonder how they price now with today's current market)?

[Adamantius]

I didn’t see anywhere to apply for a new membership.

Here are the plain leaf options and prices he has listed. Some are marked “sale” — I’m not sure how temporary that might be. I do know there’s one extract product that dropped off the website within the last few weeks since I’ve been looking.

Sumatra White
$180/kg
$70/250g
$8/25g

Potent Indo
$240/kg
$10/25g

Red Kali
$200/kg
$71/250g
$10/25g

Green Kali
$200/kg
$57/250g

Maeng Da
$380/kg
$120/250g
$18/25

Sundanese Superior Indo
$150/250g
$16/25g

Tranquil/Blonde Indo
$18/25g

If you’re sufficiently interested, I’m open to trying to figure something out in the TP?

[IjustFeltLikeRunnin’]

Oh my……!

[mivanqua]

I didn’t see anywhere to apply for a new membership.

Here are the plain leaf options and prices he has listed. Some are marked “sale” — I’m not sure how temporary that might be. I do know there’s one extract product that dropped off the website within the last few weeks since I’ve been looking.

Sumatra White
$180/kg
$70/250g
$8/25g

Potent Indo
$240/kg
$10/25g

Red Kali
$200/kg
$71/250g
$10/25g

Green Kali
$200/kg
$57/250g

Maeng Da
$380/kg
$120/250g
$18/25

Sundanese Superior Indo
$150/250g
$16/25g

Tranquil/Blonde Indo
$18/25g

If you’re sufficiently interested, I’m open to trying to figure something out in the TP?

Ive had the same vintage stuff as mike and found it very amazing, even nearly a decade old. Im ULTRA interested in truing tne reds if you decide to do this let me know. It definitely had its own thing going on

[Arob1000]

I was able to reset my password, sign in, and order. It actually showed up too, so apparently things are still flowing.

He brought the very first Maeng Da and Sunda to market, so definitely a classic. Not to mention the FAS he supplied Speciosa Specialists for their legendary original tincture...

Didn’t that Speciosa Specialist FST tincture have RC’s in it? I used to take it a long time ago before I discovered leaf and my priorities were different, stuff was way too potent and not Kratom…

[MitSpec7]

Herb Research is very much open. I heard there was a website update that resulted the loss of their waiting list but I have seen a few people say they have been given new accounts and had luck recovering their original profiles. Might be worth asking or at the very least asking if there is a new waiting list to get on.

I might have even heard of a rumor that they have expanded quietly. I haven't been able to figure out exactly what that means but I'm excited for when I do and to have that curiosity quenched.

[MikeEdoessomething]

I didn’t see anywhere to apply for a new membership.

Here are the plain leaf options and prices he has listed. Some are marked “sale” — I’m not sure how temporary that might be. I do know there’s one extract product that dropped off the website within the last few weeks since I’ve been looking.

Sumatra White
$180/kg
$70/250g
$8/25g

Potent Indo
$240/kg
$10/25g

Red Kali
$200/kg
$71/250g
$10/25g

Green Kali
$200/kg
$57/250g

Maeng Da
$380/kg
$120/250g
$18/25

Sundanese Superior Indo
$150/250g
$16/25g

Tranquil/Blonde Indo
$18/25g

If you’re sufficiently interested, I’m open to trying to figure something out in the TP?

Ive had the same vintage stuff as mike and found it very amazing, even nearly a decade old. Im ULTRA interested in truing tne reds if you decide to do this let me know. It definitely had its own thing going on

Hey, so I got a membership with Herb Research couple months back. The Red Kali is worth the price (In my opinion), prob just as good, or close, as the vintage stuff we shared. I bought a couple ounces to try, all were excellent and unique (jade queen in particular), but the Red Kali is the only I bought in larger amount. It is a consistent, mid spec pain relieving strain with very long legs (usually 6 hours for me, which no leaf does except some TFH)! I use it almost every day, by itself and in blends. I've gone through almost 500g of it already and will be ordering a kilo when I need more.

[Joshgreenhorn]

That is some super expensive kratom! If I were going to throw that much money into finding a fire batch I would just buy from DG Botanicals. He has regulars, plantation, wild harvested, and deep jungle kratom each with its own price point. If you go for the deep jungle and wild harvested your are pretty much guaranteed to get something you like. He has some excellent leaf but you're going to pay for it. I would advise grabbing the sampler pack to test the waters before a bigger purchase. Some of the strongest leaf I've ever had came from DG and that's all I look for in kratom, potency!

[Nelson Baboon]

That is some super expensive kratom! If I were going to throw that much money into finding a fire batch I would just buy from DG Botanicals. He has regulars, plantation, wild harvested, and deep jungle kratom each with its own price point. If you go for the deep jungle and wild harvested your are pretty much guaranteed to get something you like. He has some excellent leaf but you're going to pay for it. I would advise grabbing the sampler pack to test the waters before a bigger purchase. Some of the strongest leaf I've ever had came from DG and that's all I look for in kratom, potency!

another shout out here. he has some strains that are even more expensive than the ones you list, but i am a total fan at this point. i don't think that it's only potency,. but i find the effects to be unique (though obviously within a range, "kratom is kratom". I can't imagine not having his kratom in my 'rotation' at this point, so i will pay his prices. I am very curious about herb research though. I know someone who recently got on their waiting list. I just filled out their online form last night.

[BallzDeep9]

Ridiculous... A few of these older, Pre-2017 vendors, who started the whole "Exclusive and Private" idea that, their Plain Leaf Powder kratom was Sooo much better & different than anyone else's LOL ~ I mean, the whole idea that (For Example) Sundanese is a particular special "strain" of leaf ?? oooh sounds like something exotic and mysterious, right ? Worth $400 a Kilo right ?

NO. The Sunda Islands refers to ALL of Indonesia... from the tip of Sumatra --> and Borneo --> East to Sulawesi. ALL of it... which means that ALL kratom = "Sundanese". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunda_Islands

Just one Example. He also, and apparently STILL -- claims that "Maeng Da" is an actual strain ? (It's not, it's just hype!) - Here's their website https://herbresearch.com/products/

[mivanqua]

Isn't HR the first to offer the Plantation Maeng Da?

If you're the one who brings it to market, you can call it whatever you want.

Right?

And these guys INVENTED the game, if it weren't for Herb Research, would we even be taking kratom at all? Ya kinda have to wonder about that. They blazed this trail.

So yeah, charge more. It's cool. Pretty sure the first commercially available Maeng Da was through them. I had it through HS back then, and it IS really super.

[Nelson Baboon]

Ridiculous... A few of these older, Pre-2017 vendors, who started the whole "Exclusive and Private" idea that, their Plain Leaf Powder kratom was Sooo much better & different than anyone else's LOL ~ I mean, the whole idea that (For Example) Sundanese is a particular special "strain" of leaf ?? oooh sounds like something exotic and mysterious, right ? Worth $400 a Kilo right ?

NO. The Sunda Islands refers to ALL of Indonesia... from the tip of Sumatra --> and Borneo --> East to Sulawesi. ALL of it... which means that ALL kratom = "Sundanese". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunda_Islands

Just one Example. He also, and apparently STILL -- claims that "Maeng Da" is an actual strain ? (It's not, it's just hype!) - Here's their website https://herbresearch.com/products/

Well, we all know here that strain names are pretty much just marketing, and even vendors that openly talk about this (like TFH) still use the lingo. The only vendor that doesn't use this consensus fiction to differentiate strains is Sakti (afaik), which i appreciate, but then they have very few strains. if you have lots of strains you're left with 2 possibilities, really - either use this agreed upon terminology, or make up silly names.

[BookofEnoch1914]

This is a quote direct from HR website.

"What is Sunda? I made the name up to describe a particular grade that was harvested in a particular fashion that came from a particular area that was harvested during the four months following rainy season that ALSO tested higher than a specific % of alkaloid."

"So…. I had a batch harvested the specific way and time Sunda is harvested and it tests out to be excellent so for now I’ll put it back on the website. The two original suppliers now longer are in the business, both driven out by the government."

"It would be easy for me to start offering just anything people sold me and making up names to sell it faster but then I’d loose the respect and trust of HerbResearch members. Herbresearch is the first documented website to offer Kali, Sumatra and Sunda. "

Harvest Time, Location, Post Harvest Processing, Drying Methods, etc. Seem to be what makes This "Strain" what it is. Honestly, this is exactly what TFH has been doing for years now with some of their suppliers. Considering TFH Chris was a customer of HR 15+ years ago it makes sense. It's also my understanding that HR has NOT had Sundanese for sale for years prior to this batch. I bought an ounce of this batch and I can tell you it is Strong and "Different", both in appearance and in effects. It's not just higher Mit, I suspect other alkaloids have higher content as well. Buying an ounce here or there as a connoisseur? Absolutely, totally worth it. Buying a kilo? I wouldn't personally. It is what it is.

[Joshgreenhorn]

This is a quote direct from HR website.

"What is Sunda? I made the name up to describe a particular grade that was harvested in a particular fashion that came from a particular area that was harvested during the four months following rainy season that ALSO tested higher than a specific % of alkaloid."

"So…. I had a batch harvested the specific way and time Sunda is harvested and it tests out to be excellent so for now I’ll put it back on the website. The two original suppliers now longer are in the business, both driven out by the government."

"It would be easy for me to start offering just anything people sold me and making up names to sell it faster but then I’d loose the respect and trust of HerbResearch members. Herbresearch is the first documented website to offer Kali, Sumatra and Sunda. "

Harvest Time, Location, Post Harvest Processing, Drying Methods, etc. Seem to be what makes This "Strain" what it is. Honestly, this is exactly what TFH has been doing for years now with some of their suppliers. Considering TFH Chris was a customer of HR 15+ years ago it makes sense. It's also my understanding that HR has NOT had Sundanese for sale for years prior to this batch. I bought an ounce of this batch and I can tell you it is Strong and "Different", both in appearance and in effects. It's not just higher Mit, I suspect other alkaloids have higher content as well. Buying an ounce here or there as a connoisseur? Absolutely, totally worth it. Buying a kilo? I wouldn't personally. It is what it is.

I can agree with this, an oz once in a blue moon as a treat to yourself for connoisseur purposes. But absolutely not kilo-worthy or even a quarter-worthy. Sounds like it would make an excellent blender for your not-so-good leaf.

[mivanqua]

Or, in my case, and in enoch's too most likely, (I happen to know him some) I would just take it and enjoy it for its own charm.

Speaking of knowing you some, well said and absolutely correct. Nobody is forcing anything on anyone here. You wanna spend 18 bucks on an ounce? Ok. Is it worth it? Sounds like it is.

Now, what's next?

[MikeEdoessomething]

Ridiculous... A few of these older, Pre-2017 vendors, who started the whole "Exclusive and Private" idea that, their Plain Leaf Powder kratom was Sooo much better & different than anyone else's LOL ~ I mean, the whole idea that (For Example) Sundanese is a particular special "strain" of leaf ?? oooh sounds like something exotic and mysterious, right ? Worth $400 a Kilo right ?

NO. The Sunda Islands refers to ALL of Indonesia... from the tip of Sumatra --> and Borneo --> East to Sulawesi. ALL of it... which means that ALL kratom = "Sundanese". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunda_Islands

Just one Example. He also, and apparently STILL -- claims that "Maeng Da" is an actual strain ? (It's not, it's just hype!) - Here's their website https://herbresearch.com/products/

The Red Kali is worth the $200-250 kilo asking price, for me. It is that good for pain relief for my parents and myself, and the relief lasts longer than any leaf I have currently. Have you had any of their leaf recently, or spoken to anyone who has and gathered their experiences? If not, it's kind of ridiculous to make assumptions or general statements that "it's just hype"without actually, you know, trying the product itself (or gathering opinions from those who have)... What's worth the price is subjective. Because when it comes to pain relief, I'll pay more for leaf that gives my parents and myself better, more consistent and longer lasting relief. Am I ridiculous for doing so?

Are the other strains worth the prices? Not for me for what effects I desire. But I dose 2-4grams so buying a few ounces is absolutely worth it for me as I can make those ounces last a good time. I still have some from the ounces I bought a few months ago (Jade Queen, Tranquil Indo), so I've more than gotten my money's worth. And I'll buy some ounces again whenever I place another order with them.

[mivanqua]

The Tranquil Indo from 2016 (or around there from gumby that mike and I split) and the recent ounce that Enoch sent me were VERY similar. It has a very strange and awesome feel to it. I emailed and requested a membership and they got back to me and said they are getting ready to open up for a few more people and I'll be on that list. I'm cool with that.
I have a Huckleberry if necessary,
but I'm not in a hurry.

It'll come around.

I am going to get some of it first thing, I'll get you an ounce ballz so you can get a feel for it and if you DO hate it, at least you'll know for a fact that you do. It's weird stuff. Awesome weird, not sketchy weird.

[Nelson Baboon]

The Tranquil Indo from 2016 (or around there from gumby that mike and I split) and the recent ounce that Enoch sent me were VERY similar. It has a very strange and awesome feel to it. I emailed and requested a membership and they got back to me and said they are getting ready to open up for a few more people and I'll be on that list. I'm cool with that.
I have a Huckleberry if necessary,
but I'm not in a hurry.

It'll come around.

I am going to get some of it first thing, I'll get you an ounce ballz so you can get a feel for it and if you DO hate it, at least you'll know for a fact that you do. It's weird stuff. Awesome weird, not sketchy weird.

that sounds like a good recommendation....hoping that i get the membership. i think i'm on the waiting list at the moment.

[BallzDeep9]

This is a quote direct from HR website.

"What is Sunda? I made the name up to describe a particular grade that was harvested in a particular fashion that came from a particular area that was harvested ..."

"It would be easy for me to start offering just anything people sold me and making up names to sell it faster but then I’d loose the respect and trust of HerbResearch members. Herbresearch is the first documented website to offer Kali, Sumatra and Sunda. "

Buying an ounce here or there as a connoisseur? Absolutely, totally worth it. Buying a kilo? I wouldn't personally. It is what it is.

oh man I gotta pick on a couple of these Points... First his "quotes". He admits that: Sunda is a made-up name. In other words... the WORD, means nothing! As I pointed out, Sunda refers to ALL of Indonesia. But the funny part is - saying he's lose respect if "Members" knew he was just making shit up ?? LOL

But hey I love the Psychology here. Having worked years in Sales & Marketing ... and, well, 1 thing you notice about "Kratom Buyers" ? Nobody EVER, I mean almost never, admits they over-paid or got suckered !! OK. I get it.. and here is the Quote: Buyer's Pride Is A Mo-Fo was said by a better man than I - long ago. IF anyone remembers ? the great Secret Shopper/ Blindfold Testing thread on Reddit from years ago...

Herb Research, Ethan... DG Botanicals, Brian... Re-Leaf LLC, Joe Sokol... Happy Hippo, dude ? . ALL these High Price vendors have their Cult members errrr "Fans" who SWEAR, it's the Best leaf and totally worth it!! ~ and there's others. For sure. And we're talking... A few bucks... No biggie !! Glad you enjoyed it. We all have our preferences... For ME, absolutely not, I'm not paying f'kin double or triple, it's The Principle here... dammit lol.

NO I don't feel jealous in the least... AND I don't feel any less toward anyone who goes that route... Kratom "strains" like snowflakes, right ? They're all so different ? ~ But! I've got at least TEN vendors, Public websites - Who I'm convinced sell product JUST as good, for HALF the price... MM is a Public Forum and, for all Lurkers reading this, and many New folks visiting here... NO. You don't need a Private vendor !! You don't need a "Membership". You don't need to Pay Double (usually NO correlation between Price and Quality!) .. to find excellent, Top Shelf kratom!

mivanqua - I've got some. Bought from Chris awhile back... Tranquil Indo and 1 other and ? yeah was "different" just not that strong.. JMHO and YMMV

[mivanqua]

^ see. Even Ballz thinks it's different. ;)

that's the recommendation of a lifetime.

IF different is what you're after, which I absolutely am.

I realized along the way that I'm a marijuana connissuer more than a "user" although I AM both. I like to try new kinds of marijuana and enjoy the subtleties in their tastes. Sometimes you get that special high, but usually it's within certain parameters of action. It's the taste and especially the SMELL I love about pot. I want to try it all. What happens after that?

I'll never know.

Sometimes it's just nice to have something different, even if it isn't as "strong" (as Ballz said) in general. I'm not looking to get wasted off my ass with anything anymore. Just a touch will do.

[Nelson Baboon]

This is a quote direct from HR website.

"What is Sunda? I made the name up to describe a particular grade that was harvested in a particular fashion that came from a particular area that was harvested ..."

"It would be easy for me to start offering just anything people sold me and making up names to sell it faster but then I’d loose the respect and trust of HerbResearch members. Herbresearch is the first documented website to offer Kali, Sumatra and Sunda. "

Buying an ounce here or there as a connoisseur? Absolutely, totally worth it. Buying a kilo? I wouldn't personally. It is what it is.

oh man I gotta pick on a couple of these Points... First his "quotes". He admits that: Sunda is a made-up name. In other words... the WORD, means nothing! As I pointed out, Sunda refers to ALL of Indonesia. But the funny part is - saying he's lose respect if "Members" knew he was just making shit up ?? LOL

But hey I love the Psychology here. Having worked years in Sales & Marketing ... and, well, 1 thing you notice about "Kratom Buyers" ? Nobody EVER, I mean almost never, admits they over-paid or got suckered !! OK. I get it.. and here is the Quote: Buyer's Pride Is A Mo-Fo was said by a better man than I - long ago. IF anyone remembers ? the great Secret Shopper/ Blindfold Testing thread on Reddit from years ago...

Herb Research, Ethan... DG Botanicals, Brian... Re-Leaf LLC, Joe Sokol... Happy Hippo, dude ? . ALL these High Price vendors have their Cult members errrr "Fans" who SWEAR, it's the Best leaf and totally worth it!! ~ and there's others. For sure. And we're talking... A few bucks... No biggie !! Glad you enjoyed it. We all have our preferences... For ME, absolutely not, I'm not paying f'kin double or triple, it's The Principle here... dammit lol.

NO I don't feel jealous in the least... AND I don't feel any less toward anyone who goes that route... Kratom "strains" like snowflakes, right ? They're all so different ? ~ But! I've got at least TEN vendors, Public websites - Who I'm convinced sell product JUST as good, for HALF the price... MM is a Public Forum and, for all Lurkers reading this, and many New folks visiting here... NO. You don't need a Private vendor !! You don't need a "Membership". You don't need to Pay Double (usually NO correlation between Price and Quality!) .. to find excellent, Top Shelf kratom!

mivanqua - I've got some. Bought from Chris awhile back... Tranquil Indo and 1 other and ? yeah was "different" just not that strong.. JMHO and YMMV

You seem to love to make your points by ridiculing people, and exaggerating their words. For instance, I don't see anyone claiming that DG botanicals is the "best leaf", and i certainly didn't use language like "worth it". I just claimed that I like it, that it differentiated itself from other vendors in its style, and i liked to have it around. I don't get into language like "best" and certainly don't get into nonsense about such and such vendors kratom is 4x better than some other vendor. it's not about quantifying the quality. You are one reason that i have hesitated to talk about DG botanicals here, and i suspect also Herb Research, if i get a membership. It is pretty predictable that very soon after posting, there will be a post by you essentially ridiculing any other approach than yours, which seems to be - buy as cheap as possible and add extract, UNLESS you they buying from one of your favorite vendors for which you make special exceptions. And that you don't need any private vendors, with the public ones being just as good, unless it's one you like - like TFH.
(i'm emphatically not saying that TFH isn't good - i like them very much, and would love to be a member)

[BallzDeep9]

You seem to love to make your points by ridiculing people, and exaggerating their words. For instance, I don't see anyone claiming that DG Botanicals is the "best leaf", ... You are one reason that i have hesitated to talk about DG botanicals here, and i suspect also Herb Research, if i get a membership.

No I said nothing directed at you. I didn't quote your Post. If you're now taking my comments personally getting all butt-hurt and offended, I'm sorry... Maybe some history and "context" is in order ? Double MM started in 2018 as an independent public Forum, from Reddit r/kratoMM which itself, was an alternative to the main Reddit r/kratom which went through a whole year of arguments about DG Botanicals... to the point where DG seems more like a weird religion, than just a dude selling kratom ??

Absolutely "No proof" of potency, or comparative quality, of DG's kratom was ever provided - NO Lab tests - Nor was any transparency as to Source of DG's products. Nothing to justify DG's outrageous prices ( 3X and 4X for his "Premiums") There were however, wild stories offered - For example that his kratom came from 1 "secret Farm" where they had a few magical trees that were of a different type than other wild trees from same Region of Borneo, Indonesia... BS!

I mean it was ludicrous... We all Love Kratom, but the whole "Buyers Pride" thing had turned into this high-school debate: My Kratom is better than Your Kratom, and... it just went on and on... Finally, ( I was owner of the r/Kratom_Vendors sub on Reddit.) and because I refused to List DG (due to his ridiculous prices,) a few of his Cult members then reported our sub to Reddit and got the Vendor List banned!! And I received anonymous pm's claiming credit for that. Great, huh ? Deny the general Public, having a free resource - because of some silly drama ??

You know... I get that: People Love their Kratom and - it's a very personal thing, and all... But again. This is a Public board! and, to me, it should be about helping the noobs here the Lurkers and, those just wanting to find some decent Leaf... IF you want a Chat Room, there's Mewe for that. My thing is just, trying to cut through the BS Lot of that in the Kratom biz! - because people DO need help and Kratom does Save Lives!

[Nelson Baboon]

You seem to love to make your points by ridiculing people, and exaggerating their words. For instance, I don't see anyone claiming that DG Botanicals is the "best leaf", ... You are one reason that i have hesitated to talk about DG botanicals here, and i suspect also Herb Research, if i get a membership.

No I said nothing directed at you. I didn't quote your Post. If you're now taking my comments personally getting all butt-hurt and offended, I'm sorry... Maybe some history and "context" is in order ? Double MM started in 2018 as an independent public Forum, from Reddit r/kratoMM which itself, was an alternative to the main Reddit r/kratom which went through a whole year of arguments about DG Botanicals... to the point where DG seems more like a weird religion, than just a dude selling kratom ??

Absolutely "No proof" of potency, or comparative quality, of DG's kratom was ever provided - NO Lab tests - Nor was any transparency as to Source of DG's products. Nothing to justify DG's outrageous prices ( 3X and 4X for his "Premiums") There were however, wild stories offered - For example that his kratom came from 1 "secret Farm" where they had a few magical trees that were of a different type than other wild trees from same Region of Borneo, Indonesia... BS!

I mean it was ludicrous... We all Love Kratom, but the whole "Buyers Pride" thing had turned into this high-school debate: My Kratom is better than Your Kratom, and... it just went on and on... Finally, ( I was owner of the r/Kratom_Vendors sub on Reddit.) and because I refused to List DG (due to his ridiculous prices,) a few of his Cult members then reported our sub to Reddit and got the Vendor List banned!! And I received anonymous pm's claiming credit for that. Great, huh ? Deny the general Public, having a free resource - because of some silly drama ??

You know... I get that: People Love their Kratom and - it's a very personal thing, and all... But again. This is a Public board! and, to me, it should be about helping the noobs here the Lurkers and, those just wanting to find some decent Leaf... IF you want a Chat Room, there's Mewe for that. My thing is just, trying to cut through the BS Lot of that in the Kratom biz! - because people DO need help and Kratom does Save Lives!

this is nonsense. there were some threads about dg years ago, and in one of them you accused them of using extract without any evidence of any kind. you were told by at least one person that this was false.

I have spoken to this guy (and bought from him) and he makes no claims like the ones you suggest. You are attacking people who like their kratom, and as one of those people, yes - i absolutely feel like you are ridiculing and talking down to me, among others. If indeed your story above is true - that customers of his reported 'cult' did this, that still says nothing about current day customers, or about him and his company. I simply like his product, and I like having it around, and i think if you're going to want to post like you do, it should be more sharply directed at these incidents/people, without referring to his customers as a 'cult' etc. And this nonsense about 'butthurt'. I think it's very clear that you are making fun of his customers, and i think that a rereading of your post backs me up. There is nothing on there directing your scorn to incidents that happened years ago, or any evidence that this in fact happened. And how would someone who is newer to the scene possibly know about this anyway? Please point to a thread that shows this 'my kratom is better than yours' attitude. I found one old thread, and it appeared to me like people were raving about his kratom, and you can on their and started making groundless accusations.

and i simply don't see anyone trying to push new people to buy from private vendors or from DG, or HR, etc. This is in addition to a forum which helps new people, is also here to discuss vendors, and people who want to discuss vendors like this shouldn't have to cower in fear that the thread is going to turn to shit because you're going to come in and attack them. I hate these stupid arguments - you're right about the arguments being silly - but i see you starting them. This was just a nice discussion about herb research.

[BallzDeep9]

... there were some threads about DG years ago, and in one of them you accused them of using extract without any evidence of any kind. you were told by at least one person that this was false.

NO, I didn't "accuse" anyone of anything. IIRC - this is all from 6+ Years ago - The DG cult, had claimed DG's kratom was stronger than anyone else's good kratom. So I simply postulated, asked, or *suggested* that maybe he's enhancing his so-called Premium ? otherwise - How would you make stronger kratom ?? Isn't the idea of added extract - a reasonable assumption? A Fair question ? Vendors DO sell enhanced powder... It's stronger. Yes?

They made the Claim. They had "No evidence of any kind" regarding potency - But here You are turning that around, and falsely saying I "accused" something when I did NOT. I only responded to their BS Claim... I asked for 3rd party Labs or anything, to back up their bullshit - They only had "Reviews". But! Other people ALSO gave "Reviews" of DG's product, saying it wasn't any better really just..... more expensive lol

I think it's a good Discussion here, since it's been 6+ years... Adamantius started this Topic - and thankfully gave quotes on prices. Do people STILL pay crazy prices "In the Modern Era" ?? I mean... I'd LIKE to think that Buyers are more sophisticated, in 2023 - compared to back then. We HAVE learned, some things, over the years... right ? The fake "strains" ? or... Maeng Da, aka "Pimp Grade" ? means nothing really. A fancy word or phrase someone made-up to sell kratom to Americans...

Yes it's interesting that Herb Research, never did the Red Green White thing ? His batches, errr "strains" have these weird names he made up... LOL And this was years BEFORE the Modern Era of silly names for silly "blends". ( Vendors making up 20 different names like *Purple Unicorn* for the exact same stuff.) Herb Research gets full CREDIT - for being a kratom Pioneer - And for creating one of the first, top quality, Extract products = "Gold Reserve". again, way too... expensive. A price even more ridiculous NOW, in 2023, we have many professional Lab Made extract products sold online.

SO... In Retrospect... NO. The high price vendors: H-R, and DG, and Re-Leaf, and Happy Hippo... have not stood the Test of Time. and sticking to that Marketing Plan... really says more about, refusing to accept change... And their opinion of their own customers... Probably add Sebastian Guthrie to that group. Sold $400 kilos. Made over $60 Million... finally got Busted this year!

[Nelson Baboon]

... there were some threads about DG years ago, and in one of them you accused them of using extract without any evidence of any kind. you were told by at least one person that this was false.

NO, I didn't "accuse" anyone of anything. IIRC - this is all from 6+ Years ago - The DG cult, had claimed DG's kratom was stronger than anyone else's good kratom. So I simply postulated, asked, or *suggested* that maybe he's enhancing his so-called Premium ? otherwise - How would you make stronger kratom ?? Isn't the idea of added extract - a reasonable assumption? A Fair question ? Vendors DO sell enhanced powder... It's stronger. Yes?

They made the Claim. They had "No evidence of any kind" regarding potency - But here You are turning that around, and falsely saying I "accused" something when I did NOT. I only responded to their BS Claim... I asked for 3rd party Labs or anything, to back up their bullshit - They only had "Reviews". But! Other people ALSO gave "Reviews" of DG's product, saying it wasn't any better really just..... more expensive lol

I think it's a good Discussion here, since it's been 6+ years... Adamantius started this Topic - and thankfully gave quotes on prices. Do people STILL pay crazy prices "In the Modern Era" ?? I mean... I'd LIKE to think that Buyers are more sophisticated, in 2023 - compared to back then. We HAVE learned, some things, over the years... right ? The fake "strains" ? or... Maeng Da, aka "Pimp Grade" ? means nothing really. A fancy word or phrase someone made-up to sell kratom to Americans...

Yes it's interesting that Herb Research, never did the Red Green White thing ? His batches, errr "strains" have these weird names he made up... LOL And this was years BEFORE the Modern Era of silly names for silly "blends". ( Vendors making up 20 different names like *Purple Unicorn* for the exact same stuff.) Herb Research gets full CREDIT - for being a kratom Pioneer - And for creating one of the first, top quality, Extract products = "Gold Reserve". again, way too... expensive. A price even more ridiculous NOW, in 2023, we have many professional Lab Made extract products sold online.

SO... In Retrospect... NO. The high price vendors: H-R, and DG, and Re-Leaf, and Happy Hippo... have not stood the Test of Time. and sticking to that Marketing Plan... really says more about, refusing to accept change... And their opinion of their own customers... Probably add Sebastian Guthrie to that group. Sold $400 kilos. Made over $60 Million... finally got Busted this year!

i found that referenced thread back when i was researching DG. And it was what convinced me to try them out. And yeah - i read about people saying that his kratom was strong, and i didn't interpret it as saying that it was a absurdly such. I mean, i find it to be very potent. I also find Denette to be very potent. And TFH. And Lonestar. But 'suggesting' that therefore they are being dishonest and adding extract, when you have absolutely no evidence of such, is tantamount to an accusation. I remember one person (a vendor) saying that this was absolutely false, and then i saw you posting in another thread, 'suggesting' the same thing. I think that publicly suggesting that a vendor is being dishonest (which is what this really is) is not something that should be done without any evidence. Which you seemingly admit that you didn't have. All i saw was people being enthusiastic about their kratom. You make some fine gradations about vendors making up strain names, but you rave about TFH, who talk openly about the fact that these names are made up, but that everyone uses them anyway. I didn't see anything more outrageous from Herb Research than i see from anyone else. it's just accepted practice at this point. I don't think, btw, that ALL very expensive vendors have good kratom, or that i would consider buying from them. There is one rather new vendor based in Hawaii (whose name i forget, but there was a short thread about them) - with totally outrageous prices, but also with hilariously ridiculous claims on their site (almost to the point where you'd think that they were offering you eternal life). And i just simply reject your claims and the implication that the quality of kratom can be objectively measured. And I see you, on occasions when you're not in attack mode, raving about a strain or vendor here and there. I've tried some of the vendors on your 'list' and sorry - i don't even take the list seriously at this point because i do believe that not all vendors sell strains that are of the same quality, and some of those vendors are simply not very good, imo.

[BallzDeep9]

i found that referenced thread back when i was researching DG. And it was what convinced me to try them out. And yeah - i read about people saying that his kratom was strong, and i didn't interpret it as saying that it was a absurdly such. I mean, i find it to be very potent. I also find Denette to be very potent. And TFH. And Lonestar. But 'suggesting' that therefore they are being dishonest and adding extract, when you have absolutely no evidence of such, is tantamount to an accusation.

Well, It's either a SCAM - Money gained by a False Claim that it's "stronger" - OR, it's really, actually, stronger - In which case would be reasonable to think/ suggest/ ask if maybe it's Enhanced ?? which I only offered after repeated False Claims that it's MUCH "stronger" - We NOW know, there's a Limit to potency of Plain Leaf powder... Right ? Science HAS found, that Alkaloid MIT content is below 2% mitragynine and... Nobody has proven anything better. This isn't some Magic potion Star Dust... Show me a 3rd party Lab test!

Knowingly operating a SCAM ? Is cheating people... right ? Or maybe you think *Caveat Emptor* = Buyer Beware ? In a Free Market, Capitalist system so perfectly OK IF they fall for it... maybe they're desperate, in pain ? Or just don't understand... yes ? OK - C'mon - nobody would PAY $400 per Kilo for basically the same stuff that sells everywhere for $80... The Scammer must - push some False BS, and/ or psychology to trick Buyer - into paying the extra $300. High Price vendors use both... a LIE that product is THAT much better... And create an impression (often through Shills doing fake "Reviews") that others approve of the SCAM.

I just Exposed the BS, that's all... with Fact's and Science. Others agreed with me, 6+ years ago on Reddit. fortunately... Free and Open, Public forums are here to present Fact's and get the Truth out. IS there such a thing as "Truth" here ? I am saying YES... It's just a product, with data backing up the Truth. I'm offering a Consumer Report to help people find good Leaf, at reasonable prices... The ISSUE, is being tricked into paying an EXTRA $300 for something. Most people in USA really don't have/ can't afford/ to throw away their money.

You keep doing the What-about-ism thing, that somehow I'm wrong for EXPOSING the fraud here, NO. They made the "Claim" and I responded - With Science & actual Price data (Average, Median, prices 300 vendors!), and Questions - You keep bringing TFH and other vendors into this ? But those don't SCAM people for 3X 4X normal prices... or many anonymous "Reviews" ?? making wild claims - All of the High Price folks, used various psychology... they had "exclusive" Forums where their scam was promoted- DG. Funny Animals on a fancy website- HH. And the idea of being "First" for H-R,

Hey I was First with kratom so please pay $400 a kilo? LOL - The domain KRATOM.com is guilty of same. Retail prices the same. I'm happy to expose 'em all!!

[Nelson Baboon]

i found that referenced thread back when i was researching DG. And it was what convinced me to try them out. And yeah - i read about people saying that his kratom was strong, and i didn't interpret it as saying that it was a absurdly such. I mean, i find it to be very potent. I also find Denette to be very potent. And TFH. And Lonestar. But 'suggesting' that therefore they are being dishonest and adding extract, when you have absolutely no evidence of such, is tantamount to an accusation.

Well, It's either a SCAM - Money gained by a False Claim that it's "stronger" - OR, it's really, actually, stronger - In which case would be reasonable to think/ suggest/ ask if maybe it's Enhanced ?? which I only offered after repeated False Claims that it's MUCH "stronger" - We NOW know, there's a Limit to potency of Plain Leaf powder... Right ? Science HAS found, that Alkaloid MIT content is below 2% mitragynine and... Nobody has proven anything better. This isn't some Magic potion Star Dust... Show me a 3rd party Lab test!

Knowingly operating a SCAM ? Is cheating people... right ? Or maybe you think *Caveat Emptor* = Buyer Beware ? In a Free Market, Capitalist system so perfectly OK IF they fall for it... maybe they're desperate, in pain ? Or just don't understand... yes ? OK - C'mon - nobody would PAY $400 per Kilo for basically the same stuff that sells everywhere for $80... The Scammer must - push some False BS, and/ or psychology to trick Buyer - into paying the extra $300. High Price vendors use both... a LIE that product is THAT much better... And create an impression (often through Shills doing fake "Reviews") that others approve of the SCAM.

I just Exposed the BS, that's all... with Fact's and Science. Others agreed with me, 6+ years ago on Reddit. fortunately... Free and Open, Public forums are here to present Fact's and get the Truth out. IS there such a thing as "Truth" here ? I am saying YES... It's just a product, with data backing up the Truth. I'm offering a Consumer Report to help people find good Leaf, at reasonable prices... The ISSUE, is being tricked into paying an EXTRA $300 for something. Most people in USA really don't have/ can't afford/ to throw away their money.

You keep doing the What-about-ism thing, that somehow I'm wrong for EXPOSING the fraud here, NO. They made the "Claim" and I responded - With Science & actual Price data (Average, Median, prices 300 vendors!), and Questions - You keep bringing TFH and other vendors into this ? But those don't SCAM people for 3X 4X normal prices... or many anonymous "Reviews" ?? making wild claims - All of the High Price folks, used various psychology... they had "exclusive" Forums where their scam was promoted- DG. Funny Animals on a fancy website- HH. And the idea of being "First" for H-R,

Hey I was First with kratom so please pay $400 a kilo? LOL - The domain KRATOM.com is guilty of same. Retail prices the same. I'm happy to expose 'em all!!

i'm not going to engage in this silliness. as far as i know, they don't claim that their kratom is stronger.

you haven't exposed anything. But this is really getting boring. I'd like to be able to post about what i'd like here without your taunting, and i think that others should be able to also.

[MikeEdoessomething]

Ridiculous... A few of these older, Pre-2017 vendors, who started the whole "Exclusive and Private" idea that, their Plain Leaf Powder kratom was Sooo much better & different than anyone else's LOL ~ I mean, the whole idea that (For Example) Sundanese is a particular special "strain" of leaf ?? oooh sounds like something exotic and mysterious, right ? Worth $400 a Kilo right ?

NO. The Sunda Islands refers to ALL of Indonesia... from the tip of Sumatra --> and Borneo --> East to Sulawesi. ALL of it... which means that ALL kratom = "Sundanese". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunda_Islands

Just one Example. He also, and apparently STILL -- claims that "Maeng Da" is an actual strain ? (It's not, it's just hype!) - Here's their website https://herbresearch.com/products/

The Red Kali is worth the $200-250 kilo asking price, for me. It is that good for pain relief for my parents and myself, and the relief lasts longer than any leaf I have currently. Have you had any of their leaf recently, or spoken to anyone who has and gathered their experiences? If not, it's kind of ridiculous to make assumptions or general statements that "it's just hype"without actually, you know, trying the product itself (or gathering opinions from those who have)... What's worth the price is subjective. Because when it comes to pain relief, I'll pay more for leaf that gives my parents and myself better, more consistent and longer lasting relief. Am I ridiculous for doing so?

Are the other strains worth the prices? Not for me for what effects I desire. But I dose 2-4grams so buying a few ounces is absolutely worth it for me as I can make those ounces last a good time. I still have some from the ounces I bought a few months ago (Jade Queen, Tranquil Indo), so I've more than gotten my money's worth. And I'll buy some ounces again whenever I place another order with them.

Still waiting for a reply from Ballz on my post. Because their are several people I know who have brought this "ridiculous" expensive kratom from Herb Research lately and these are vets very well known in the community and whose opinion many really respect because they know quality leaf.

And don't jump around with some sort of "buyer's pride" nonsense with me please. TFH is still my favorite vendor, but not one strain I have compares to the current Herb Research Red Kali. When I can lower my dose by almost half for me and my parents and get effects that last a few hours longer than usual, the cost of the leaf comes down as I can make the leaf last almost double the time a normal good strain would last. So the current sale priced $200 kilo Red Kali will last me about twice as long as any current red I have. Still "nonsense" to pay for that?

Wonder why a lot of people aren't around doublemm as much

[MikeEdoessomething]

i found that referenced thread back when i was researching DG. And it was what convinced me to try them out. And yeah - i read about people saying that his kratom was strong, and i didn't interpret it as saying that it was a absurdly such. I mean, i find it to be very potent. I also find Denette to be very potent. And TFH. And Lonestar. But 'suggesting' that therefore they are being dishonest and adding extract, when you have absolutely no evidence of such, is tantamount to an accusation.

Well, It's either a SCAM - Money gained by a False Claim that it's "stronger" - OR, it's really, actually, stronger - In which case would be reasonable to think/ suggest/ ask if maybe it's Enhanced ?? which I only offered after repeated False Claims that it's MUCH "stronger" - We NOW know, there's a Limit to potency of Plain Leaf powder... Right ? Science HAS found, that Alkaloid MIT content is below 2% mitragynine and... Nobody has proven anything better. This isn't some Magic potion Star Dust... Show me a 3rd party Lab test!

Knowingly operating a SCAM ? Is cheating people... right ? Or maybe you think *Caveat Emptor* = Buyer Beware ? In a Free Market, Capitalist system so perfectly OK IF they fall for it... maybe they're desperate, in pain ? Or just don't understand... yes ? OK - C'mon - nobody would PAY $400 per Kilo for basically the same stuff that sells everywhere for $80... The Scammer must - push some False BS, and/ or psychology to trick Buyer - into paying the extra $300. High Price vendors use both... a LIE that product is THAT much better... And create an impression (often through Shills doing fake "Reviews") that others approve of the SCAM.

I just Exposed the BS, that's all... with Fact's and Science. Others agreed with me, 6+ years ago on Reddit. fortunately... Free and Open, Public forums are here to present Fact's and get the Truth out. IS there such a thing as "Truth" here ? I am saying YES... It's just a product, with data backing up the Truth. I'm offering a Consumer Report to help people find good Leaf, at reasonable prices... The ISSUE, is being tricked into paying an EXTRA $300 for something. Most people in USA really don't have/ can't afford/ to throw away their money.

You keep doing the What-about-ism thing, that somehow I'm wrong for EXPOSING the fraud here, NO. They made the "Claim" and I responded - With Science & actual Price data (Average, Median, prices 300 vendors!), and Questions - You keep bringing TFH and other vendors into this ? But those don't SCAM people for 3X 4X normal prices... or many anonymous "Reviews" ?? making wild claims - All of the High Price folks, used various psychology... they had "exclusive" Forums where their scam was promoted- DG. Funny Animals on a fancy website- HH. And the idea of being "First" for H-R,

Hey I was First with kratom so please pay $400 a kilo? LOL - The domain KRATOM.com is guilty of same. Retail prices the same. I'm happy to expose 'em all!!

i'm not going to engage in this silliness. as far as i know, they don't claim that their kratom is stronger.

you haven't exposed anything. But this is really getting boring. I'd like to be able to post about what i'd like here without your taunting, and i think that others should be able to also.

Knowingly operating a SCAM ? Is cheating people... right ? Or maybe you think *Caveat Emptor* = Buyer Beware ? In a Free Market, Capitalist system so perfectly OK IF they fall for it... maybe they're desperate, in pain ? Or just don't understand... yes ? OK - C'mon - nobody would PAY $400 per Kilo for basically the same stuff that sells everywhere for $80... The Scammer must - push some False BS, and/ or psychology to trick Buyer - into paying the extra $300. High Price vendors use both... a LIE that product is THAT much better... And create an impression (often through Shills doing fake "Reviews") that others approve of the SCAM

You really claiming Herb Research is a scam? Tricking buyers? Fake reviews? Seriously?

TFH's owner bought from Herb Research all the time before he went into vending. I think he knows what quality leaf is . Wonder if Ballz would tell him he got ripped off from Herb Research or make these other claims about Herb Research to him

[mivanqua]

And we've all seen the receipts for his purchases when he was selling the lots, he paid WAAAAAY over $200 For a kilo! Chris probably had sweet sweet dreams of paying two hundred for a kilo from Herb Research,. that's for sure!

Some people built this whole thing up from an unknown leaf from a relatively unknown country across the planet to a plant that helps MILLIONS, those guys at Herb Research were among them. They deserve to be able to name something that they brought to market if they want.

Everything needs a descriptor or else it IS all just green mystery powder. Now at least we have some semblance of what we MAY be getting based on loose standards of "strains" created over the years. That's all. Is it a green Red Bali or is it a Super Green? They look basically alike.

[BallzDeep9]

Still waiting for a reply from Ballz on my post. Because their are several people I know who have brought this "ridiculous" expensive kratom from Herb Research lately and these are vets very well known in the community and whose opinion many really respect because they know quality leaf.

And don't jump around with some sort of "buyer's pride" nonsense with me please. // Wonder why a lot of people aren't around doublemm as much

Alright... I was gonna let this drop & give Nelson the last word, but we've been friends on here awhile so... I just saw a worthwhile Topic to re-visit the "High Price Vendor" discussion, especially since MM is mostly about buying and selling... So let's see... Your point is... ? Vets have bought from H-R in the past. Sure. It's top quality ? Sure. Due to H-R's history and, kind of special status - understandable that folks are curious & wanna try a Sample... I like what Book said, about trying an Oz but, probably not forking out $380 for 1 kg of his "Original Maeng Da" lol...

Look I enjoy getting a nice Kratom boost & maybe a Red Bull chaser and then writing stuff... It's all opinions here, yes ? I try to write for entertainment value, too!! Nothing here is like earth shaking importance... Hey I've so far avoided, that Israel and Hamas thread. started by our friend IndelibleDotInk - who I Thank for many new interesting Topics here aside from the constant Vendor stuff which gets a bit boring sometimes ..? Unfortunately even a thread about AKA - gets very little action ??

The Buyers Pride quote came from a famous discussion on Reddit, about Secret Shoppers: Not able to tell ONE "strain" from another, using a Blindfold Test ? Have you yourself, ever tried that? How could you TELL... some expensive H-R leaf, from another quality vendor who sells for 80% Less ? Taste ? Many of us don't consume kratom for the Taste ? So not like a fine Wine, or Coffee, or food product... ? Hmmm. Placebo ? Food for thought!

I did want to address your comment about DoubleMM... Recently browsing, some New Members' posts and, it seemed like... many asked about "How do I join the Private Vendors club" or something to that effect... There have been SO many threads, By or about a few Private vendors here ? And... Some of those New folks just didn't come back.... So I don't know. E must look at Stats and all ? Are you suggesting, that I am posting too much ?? Or what is the point there.

I stand by what I write. Buying at Retail prices, OR buying from online sellers at Retail prices... IS Ridiculous! Here I have tried, with good humor... to re-visit the "High Price" thing and most what I write is, with New people in mind... because Double MM has always been Consumer oriented. My Opinion, has always been, the Retail kratom business is way, way over priced... Maybe I wasn't clear enough about H-R vendor vs DG or ReLeaf or HH or others... They are all different. I agree it's not really fair to say H-R is running a SCAM, because way back 20 years ago those were, the going prices...

Anyway I agree with Nelson. It gets silly, points were made, (or not,) & folks can buy their kratom wherever they want... NOW back to the important stuff. Sunday Football!

[MikeEdoessomething]

And we've all seen the receipts for his purchases when he was selling the lots, he paid WAAAAAY over $200 For a kilo! Chris probably had sweet sweet dreams of paying two hundred for a kilo from Herb Research,. that's for sure!

Some people built this whole thing up from an unknown leaf from a relatively unknown country across the planet to a plant that helps MILLIONS, those guys at Herb Research were among them. They deserve to be able to name something that they brought to market if they want.

Everything needs a descriptor or else it IS all just green mystery powder. Now at least we have some semblance of what we MAY be getting based on loose standards of "strains" created over the years. That's all. Is it a green Red Bali or is it a Super Green? They look basically alike.

This! Thank you! Calling Herb Research a scam or ripping off customers just didn't sit right with me. It could be damaging to their business. And it's an insult to a company that helped bring, as you said, "unknown leaf from a relatively unknown country across the planet to a plant that helps MILLIONS, those guys at Herb Research were among them. They deserve to be able to name something that they brought to market if they want." TFH, my favorite vendor, may not be what it is today if not for companies such as Herb Research! They don't seem to have a public social media presence that I'm aware of, so it's not like they're "hyping" up their leaf as the best thing ever. Their leaf also looks different than most leaf on the market today- much more coarse and some has stem-n-vein. Their enhanced Cerah Malay (25g for $20) is the best enhanced batch I've ever had! That 25g last me a bunch of doses at 2g per dose- well worth the asking price.

And they sent me a sample of the Maeng Da, I dosed it twice, and it was among the best leaf I've ever had. I wouldn't pay $380 for it because I'm not rich LOL, but it was so good I could understand why those with the financial means would buy it! And I would def do a group buy and split it with others to get the cost down. It was what all the websites claim "Maeng Da" is, except this time it legit was like how Maeng Da's are described across the internet! And the Jade Queen is among the most unique leaf on the market. One thing about Herb Research leaf, in my limited experience using them, is that their kratom lasts a lot longer than most leaf (for me), and all had top level pain relief.

Now, some of their leaf didn't blow me away. The Sunda that is super expensive was among my least favorite, although it's still excellent and WAY above average. The Tranquil Indo was very good but I wouldn't buy a larger size of it at their prices. The Potent Indo was also good but nothing special, although I only dosed it 2 times so far.

But their Red Kali is so good I didn't hesitant to pay their asking price. The relief I get from it far out-weights the price I paid! Plus it lasts longer and I can cut back my dose size, therefore I'm getting my money's worth and then some

[MikeEdoessomething]

Still waiting for a reply from Ballz on my post. Because their are several people I know who have brought this "ridiculous" expensive kratom from Herb Research lately and these are vets very well known in the community and whose opinion many really respect because they know quality leaf.

And don't jump around with some sort of "buyer's pride" nonsense with me please. // Wonder why a lot of people aren't around doublemm as much

Alright... I was gonna let this drop & give Nelson the last word, but we've been friends on here awhile so... I just saw a worthwhile Topic to re-visit the "High Price Vendor" discussion, especially since MM is mostly about buying and selling... So let's see... Your point is... ? Vets have bought from H-R in the past. Sure. It's top quality ? Sure. Due to H-R's history and, kind of special status - understandable that folks are curious & wanna try a Sample... I like what Book said, about trying an Oz but, probably not forking out $380 for 1 kg of his "Original Maeng Da" lol...

Look I enjoy getting a nice Kratom boost & maybe a Red Bull chaser and then writing stuff... It's all opinions here, yes ?

All opinion, correct, so please stop with the assumptions and claims of vendors being rip-offs, scams, just marketing, etc etc. Your quote a few replies up in regards to high priced vendors, including DG and Herb Research, among others:

Well, It's either a SCAM - Money gained by a False Claim that it's "stronger" - OR, it's really, actually, stronger - In which case would be reasonable to think/ suggest/ ask if maybe it's Enhanced ?? which I only offered after repeated False Claims that it's MUCH "stronger" - We NOW know, there's a Limit to potency of Plain Leaf powder... Right ? Science HAS found, that Alkaloid MIT content is below 2% mitragynine and... Nobody has proven anything better. This isn't some Magic potion Star Dust... Show me a 3rd party Lab test!

Knowingly operating a SCAM ? Is cheating people... right ? Or maybe you think *Caveat Emptor* = Buyer Beware ? In a Free Market, Capitalist system so perfectly OK IF they fall for it... maybe they're desperate, in pain ? Or just don't understand... yes ? OK - C'mon - nobody would PAY $400 per Kilo for basically the same stuff that sells everywhere for $80... The Scammer must - push some False BS, and/ or psychology to trick Buyer - into paying the extra $300. High Price vendors use both... a LIE that product is THAT much better... And create an impression (often through Shills doing fake "Reviews") that others approve of the SCAM.

I can't speak for DG... but the above quote is, essentially, claiming Herb Research may be a scam, as this topic is relevant to them (you use the question mark to present your claim of "Knowingly operating a scam" as a question instead outright accusation, but it's implied with the rest of your quote above)! Am I a shill for defending them in this thread about how the company is in 2023 (modern era)?

How could you TELL... some expensive H-R leaf, from another quality vendor who sells for 80% Less ? Taste ? Many of us don't consume kratom for the Taste ? So not like a fine Wine, or Coffee, or food product... ? Hmmm. Placebo ? Food for thought!

Actually, I could most likely blindly pick out their product, due to how course and gritty it is compared to basically any vendor I buy from and currently use. It's not fine powder-like leaf.

I did want to address your comment about DoubleMM... Are you suggesting, that I am posting too much ?? Or what is the point there.

Not suggesting anything other than perhaps withholding making assumptions and claims, especially claims of scamming or fraud, that could be damaging to a business. Unless you have evidence?

I stand by what I write. Buying at Retail prices, OR buying from online sellers at Retail prices... IS Ridiculous! Here I have tried, with good humor... to re-visit the "High Price" thing and most what I write is, with New people in mind... because Double MM has always been Consumer oriented. My Opinion, has always been, the Retail kratom business is way, way over priced...

I agree. Retail prices are ridiculous. That's not the topic of this thread, which is about Herb research

Maybe I wasn't clear enough about H-R vendor vs DG or ReLeaf or HH or others... They are all different. I agree it's not really fair to say H-R is running a SCAM, because way back 20 years ago those were, the going prices...

Saying it's "not really fair to say Herb Research is running a scam" is just wrong, not just "not really fair" as you put it. That should have been, "I was wrong to even imply Herb Research is running a scam, as I have no proof" and not just because they still charge what the prices were in the early years of the kratom market.

I love a good debate. I'm good at it. None of this is meant with any ill-intent or offense.

[mivanqua]

And we've all seen the receipts for his purchases when he was selling the lots, he paid WAAAAAY over $200 For a kilo! Chris probably had sweet sweet dreams of paying two hundred for a kilo from Herb Research,. that's for sure!

Some people built this whole thing up from an unknown leaf from a relatively unknown country across the planet to a plant that helps MILLIONS, those guys at Herb Research were among them. They deserve to be able to name something that they brought to market if they want.

Everything needs a descriptor or else it IS all just green mystery powder. Now at least we have some semblance of what we MAY be getting based on loose standards of "strains" created over the years. That's all. Is it a green Red Bali or is it a Super Green? They look basically alike.

This! Thank you! Calling Herb Research a scam or ripping off customers just didn't sit right with me. It could be damaging to their business. And it's an insult to a company that helped bring, as you said, "unknown leaf from a relatively unknown country across the planet to a plant that helps MILLIONS, those guys at Herb Research were among them. They deserve to be able to name something that they brought to market if they want." TFH, my favorite vendor, may not be what it is today if not for companies such as Herb Research! They don't seem to have a public social media presence that I'm aware of, so it's not like they're "hyping" up their leaf as the best thing ever. Their leaf also looks different than most leaf on the market today- much more coarse and some has stem-n-vein. Their enhanced Cerah Malay (25g for $20) is the best enhanced batch I've ever had! That 25g last me a bunch of doses at 2g per dose- well worth the asking price.

And they sent me a sample of the Maeng Da, I dosed it twice, and it was among the best leaf I've ever had. I wouldn't pay $380 for it because I'm not rich LOL, but it was so good I could understand why those with the financial means would buy it! And I would def do a group buy and split it with others to get the cost down. It was what all the websites claim "Maeng Da" is, except this time it legit was like how Maeng Da's are described across the internet! And the Jade Queen is among the most unique leaf on the market. One thing about Herb Research leaf, in my limited experience using them, is that their kratom lasts a lot longer than most leaf (for me), and all had top level pain relief.

Now, some of their leaf didn't blow me away. The Sunda that is super expensive was among my least favorite, although it's still excellent and WAY above average. The Tranquil Indo was very good but I wouldn't buy a larger size of it at their prices. The Potent Indo was also good but nothing special, although I only dosed it 2 times so far.

But their Red Kali is so good I didn't hesitant to pay their asking price. The relief I get from it far out-weights the price I paid! Plus it lasts longer and I can cut back my dose size, therefore I'm getting my money's worth and then some

If you want to sell off a little of some of those ones that aren't too amazing, let me know. I'm definitely interested in trying all the red ones they have got. Of course the Jade Queen comes POST me being able take greens but at least I got to try and dearly love that Emerald Bali though. That's what is making me defend them so much, that Emerald Bali couldn't touch ANYTHING that I had at that time. And it came with a 250 of TFH 30 Year Wild Super Green (the OG one,) and that was really amazing also, but not like that Emerald Bali. The best, hands down, of my then-collection.

As far as your post above this, I agree 100%. All of those others, who knows, but all that Herb Research claim is that they started the game, which they did. I wasn't taking kratom in 2010, had no idea it even existed. Some here WERE though, and nobody has ever said a bad word about Herb Research until this thread, and there is a very good reason for that. They are special.

Ballz, usually you are correct, but here you're going over the line being that we are sans claim made by Herb Research.


UNRELATED :

My favorite probably of all came from one of those lots, I still have about eighty grams of it, the Sacred Plant Life Red Borneo. Somebody got the rest, maybe lavender? in another lot, but that is the best kratom of all time to me. Such a "Red." Smells and tastes pretty awful though.

Here it is :

https://ibb.co/zXjGVC2

It's hard for me not to take any being as it's, you know...out and all....hahaha!

Next year it will be ten years old and unless it intends to degrade considerably in the next year, which I don't foresee, two things are probably true :

1. This stuff used to be unbelievable

2. It's probably going to last forever at the remaining still
remarkable potency.

My favorite, you know, besides Baik Bali, which I still have a good quarter + of left

[xymoriintus]

[mivanqua]

You're silly man.