Double M Herbals | Kratom Forum

I'm not going to name the product but I've seen it popping up more and more on reddit. They claim to contain 14mg of pure 7-OH only, for context you would need to consume 125g of leaf (average leaf is 0.12mg/g of 7-OH) to get that amount. I can only imagine what would happen if these gain popularity on the street.

It's truly a bad look for the kratom community.

do they even work? what do they do? just for pain? are they fake?

kwest13 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 7:14 pm do they even work? what do they do? just for pain? are they fake?

You can find reviews on the Vendorsofkratom2 subreddit, many say it's very sedating. Here is just one example of someone complaining about the withdrawals, I've seen many. https://www.reddit.com/r/kratom/comment ... eyeopener/ This is not something you want to experiment with.

anonk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 8:07 pm

kwest13 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 7:14 pm do they even work? what do they do? just for pain? are they fake?

You can find reviews on the Vendorsofkratom2 subreddit, many say it's very sedating. Here is just one example of someone complaining about the withdrawals, I've seen many. https://www.reddit.com/r/kratom/comment ... eyeopener/ This is not something you want to experiment with.

how is it much different that other extracts? I wouldnt want to try it anyway because I dont take kratom for pain or sleep. but also someone was claiming they may be fake

anonk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:51 pm I'm not going to name the product but I've seen it popping up more and more on reddit. They claim to contain 14mg of pure 7-OH only, for context you would need to consume 125g of leaf (average leaf is 0.12mg/g of 7-OH) to get that amount. I can only imagine what would happen if these gain popularity on the street.

I understand what you are saying but the amount of 7-OH in raw leaf doesn't matter - you can't judge dose sizes based on that, as it is present only in sub-threshold doses that have no effect on you. Mitragynine is metabolized into 7-OH inside your system and that is where the effect comes from - so if you consume 125g of leaf, you would get a lot more than 14mg.

Voice_of_Morgulduin wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 8:21 pm I understand what you are saying but the amount of 7-OH in raw leaf doesn't matter - you can't judge dose sizes based on that, as it is present only in sub-threshold doses that have no effect on you. Mitragynine is metabolized into 7-OH inside your system and that is where the effect comes from - so if you consume 125g of leaf, you would get a lot more than 14mg.

Keep in mind Mitragynine is also active on its own, 7-Oh and Mitragynine compete with one another at different receptor sites furthering its ceiling effect. If you ever had an extract with high Mitragynine you know more does not equal better, 7-OH has a much stronger affinity that along with eliminating first pass metabolism means you no longer have the same ceiling effect. https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/j.neuropharm.2017.08.026

anonk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 10:53 pm

Voice_of_Morgulduin wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 8:21 pm I understand what you are saying but the amount of 7-OH in raw leaf doesn't matter - you can't judge dose sizes based on that, as it is present only in sub-threshold doses that have no effect on you. Mitragynine is metabolized into 7-OH inside your system and that is where the effect comes from - so if you consume 125g of leaf, you would get a lot more than 14mg.

Keep in mind Mitragynine is also active on its own, 7-Oh and Mitragynine compete with one another at different receptor sites furthering its ceiling effect. If you ever had an extract with high Mitragynine you know more does not equal better, 7-OH has a much stronger affinity that along with eliminating first pass metabolism means you no longer have the same ceiling effect. https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/j.neuropharm.2017.08.026

I'm just sayin, comparing a 70hm tablet to 125gs of plain leaf feels a bit disingenuous.

I voiced my opinion on it, but yeah basically this is stupid and bad. You can probably shoot this up. Now the problem with that is if you take the entire kratom consumer base youll have people that will do that. Once someone dies with a needle and kratom isolate, kratom gets banned. The people or person selling this is most likely not someone who supports kratom or cares about kratom. I cant tell you how many kratom companies Ive talked to where they dont even use or care about kratom, they are just there for the money. Many people in the CBD industry have jumped into kratom ever since the credit card processing has opened up, like ALOT of them. They know nothing about kratom nor care and most have extraction equipment from making cbd and cbd extractions.

Honestly at the end of the day that just shows how dumb our country is because you can take ANYTHING good and turn it into something bad or something that kills people. If someone starts selling 2,000mg coffee and ends up killing someone, should the government shut down every coffee shop to ever exist? If regulators can’t figure out that there’s a difference between extracting one alkaloid in Kratom at an extreme dose and ingesting raw plant leaf at normal doses then…… I’m not even sure why we are pretending we’re a country that’s just pure stupidity

Sityice wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:33 pm If someone starts selling 2,000mg coffee and ends up killing someone, should the government shut down every coffee shop to ever exist?

Yup, the pure 7-hydroxymitragynine tablets are a bad idea. The inevitable overreaction to bad outcomes could be disastrous for a marginal product in the bullseye of prohibitionists.

Speaking of caffeine, a headline today...

Man dies on way home from Panera after having three “charged” lemonades
A large lemonade contains up to 390 mg of caffeine, nearly the FDA's daily safe limit.

https://arstechnica.com/health/2023/12/ ... lemonades/

Sityice wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:33 pm Honestly at the end of the day that just shows how dumb our country is because you can take ANYTHING good and turn it into something bad or something that kills people. If someone starts selling 2,000mg coffee and ends up killing someone, should the government shut down every coffee shop to ever exist? If regulators can’t figure out that there’s a difference between extracting one alkaloid in Kratom at an extreme dose and ingesting raw plant leaf at normal doses then…… I’m not even sure why we are pretending we’re a country that’s just pure stupidity

The best way i can describe this situation is. Poppy plants -> opium -> heroin.
Agreeing to your statements i would say the AKA which has passed the consumer protection acts in many states has divided the product from whats acceptable and whats not. This company going against the KCPA shows the government that the kratom industry cant even regulate itself. This would cause the government to step in and make decisions which we dont want to happen. The AKA really needs to be stepping up on this situation and i wouldn't mind seeing them put in limits on total amount of mitragynine per product. Its going higher and higher and from what Ive heard from producers they produce specific levels within the product for Florida alone.

And .........It's about to get even worse...A seperate company is about to release Mitragynine Pseudoindoxyl extract in dissolvable pill form. Pseudo is the metabolite of 7-Ohm, so even more potent.....?

Scary. Scary for the people who take these products and scary for the rest of us when the powdered leaf, conflated with these monstrous iterations, is made illegal everywhere.

Just want to chime in on this. I have dabbled in extracts occasionally though mostly stick to plain leaf at this point. Anyways I didn’t really think much of it and tried a 3 pack of these 14mg 7ohm tablets. The first day I took an entire tablet and at first it felt legitimately like an opiate high, extreme mood elevation, sedation, etc. I have a fairly high tolerance (though slowly working my way back to a “respect the plant level”) so it shocked me that the effects were so strong. Not sure about a ceiling effect but after about an hour I got some wobbles and it turned somewhat unpleasant.

I decided to finish off the 3 pack and took 1/2 tablets the next 4 days. That was the sweet spot for maximum effects for me. But honestly, this stuff is no good. Anyone with an addictive personality will abuse these and up with ridiculous tolerances. After taking for 5 days, I found mild discomfort switching back to plain leaf with a dabbling of extract sprinkled in, though I noticed no change in the effects. I was 95% normal though, not a big deal for me after 5 days.

Anyways many agree that this is a bad step. I tried it without putting too much thought into it and yeah these shouldn’t be on the market imo or at the very least easily available in smoke shops. Just not a good look for kratom

Someone should test them because I'll betcha it's NOT 7OHM. Jfish is absolutely right, the person who is selling this shit is ANTI kratom and what happens if they put fent into a batch and kill a bunch of people and put it on "kratom?"
That's the vibe I get here, their "legitimate kratom deaths" at long last and a stern "see we were right!" followed by a swift legislation change.

This whole thing just has me SMH - and while I doubt it's a stealth campaign to get kratom banned, I wouldn't doubt it at all that the person selling it doesn't care anything other than making $$$.

As consumers the best we can do is not patronize, but we should also spread the word to other, more gullible folks.

mivanqua wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 8:41 am Someone should test them because I'll betcha it's NOT 7OHM. Jfish is absolutely right, the person who is selling this shit is ANTI kratom and what happens if they put fent into a batch and kill a bunch of people and put it on "kratom?"
That's the vibe I get here, their "legitimate kratom deaths" at long last and a stern "see we were right!" followed by a swift legislation change.

The Tampa Bay Times had them independently lab tested, the only good thing to come from their series. They are indeed what they claim to be. https://www.tampabay.com/investigations ... -we-found/

anonk wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 4:51 pm

mivanqua wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 8:41 am Someone should test them because I'll betcha it's NOT 7OHM. Jfish is absolutely right, the person who is selling this shit is ANTI kratom and what happens if they put fent into a batch and kill a bunch of people and put it on "kratom?"
That's the vibe I get here, their "legitimate kratom deaths" at long last and a stern "see we were right!" followed by a swift legislation change.

The Tampa Bay Times had them independently lab tested, the only good thing to come from their series. They are indeed what they claim to be. https://www.tampabay.com/investigations ... -we-found/

For now at least.