Kratoms taking longer and longer to kick in?

[beathappening]

Five years ago, when I first started taking kratom, I would get come up effects in a half hour. Fast forward to about a year ago, and it took over an hour. And currently, i don't feel any effects for up to two hours. Always on an empty stomach. Im well acquainted with kratom so it's not that I'm just not noticing it kick in, I just feel nothing up to that point. Once it does kick in, then it's typical, normal kratom effects, lasts just as long, just the same as it's always been.

Has anyone experienced this? Is it tolerance related? The only other thing that's really changed is I'm taking some psychotropic medications now. I've been taking 20+ grams everyday for quite awhile now. I'm going to do an agmatine taper soon, but just wanted to see if this has happened to anyone else.

[Badree8]

I'm not much experience about this. But my mother is talking kratom every day. And she is feeling good right now. Actually, she is suffering from mental depression. Kratom has helped her to recover and she is mentally well now.

[whiffypants]

It's been happening to me as well, albeit very slowly, so I do think at least part of it is tolerance. It usually hits at 45 minutes to an hour for me, on average, on an empty stomach.

But another part of it is that, in my own anecdotal opinion, the leaf overall these days is somewhat weaker than in days gone by: this is just my guess, I could be wrong, but I suspect that greater demand and increased harvesting in the wild means old growth is pretty well stripped by now, and most of our kratom is coming from newer trees which are not as strong in terms of alkaloid content as older trees are. There are a number of longtimers who mention it in passing, that the leaf is just not as strong these days, but who can dip back into carefully hoarded older stashes and still find fire, so I tend to believe them. Especially when they've been taking the same daily dose for years.

So that explains at least some of it, IMO. But if I were in your shoes, I'd do a search on mymedication +kratom and see if I could find some anecdotal experiences to go by, because various medications DO affect kratom uptake for whatever reason, even if they're not specifically active on the opioid receptors. Specifically, there is some known interaction with meds that affect serotonin; we just had a brief mention of that on Reddit the other day. And even some blood pressure meds keep it from doing its best (looking at you, propranolol). It's not as good as a study, but if you can find several people who say "I take x medication and it affects me this way with kratom" it's a helpful bit of info.

Anyway, it's a starting point in looking for more info. If it turns out there are anecdotal reports of kratom interaction with your meds, you may be able to stagger or time the doses of each to get the max out of both. Consider letting us know if you find anything, because chances are good someone else here could use the info, and in the meantime -- good luck!

[jabro70]

I’ve read that a lot - that there just isn’t much “old growth” left and the kratom just isn’t as strong as it used to be. I have a question - just how do they harvest the leaves over there? I mean do they kill the tree or something when they harvest the leaves? It would seem to me that there should still be some “old growth” left as long as they are not actually killing the trees. I’ve seen lots of pictures of leaves drying on vendors websites, but I’ve never seen pictures of the trees after the leaves have been stripped. Now there’s probably less and less of the old growth harvest left to go around since kratom is gaining popularity daily. Hopefully they are planting “forests” of new kratom trees to keep up with demand. I wish kratom trees were indigenous to the US! If anyone here has seen an actual tree being harvested or know how they do it - I’d sure be interested in learning more about it.

[K-OG]

The Kalimatan jungle is HUGE and many parts of Aceh and Sumatra are unexplored...They found a group of "wild" people living deep in the aceh jungle and they thought these people died off over 100 years ago...

Bottom line is theres tons of kratom trees that have never been touched.. But many providers stick with farmers for ease. Also, if you get an old untouched tree, it doesnt guarantee its going to be great. Time of picking, minerals and soil condition, time between last rain and harvest all are variables in harvest potency.

[whiffypants]

Good to see you here, Harry, and good info too. Glad to know I'm wrong about that old growth. Thanks for the correction!

I wish kratom trees were indigenous to the US! If anyone here has seen an actual tree being harvested or know how they do it - I’d sure be interested in learning more about it.

Check out r/KratomGarden on Reddit -- there are a few people growing commercially in the US right now, and people in southern Florida are doing really well with growing locally.

[K-OG]

Hello. Dont get me wrong..I always prefer old growth..But a 40 year old tree in the middle of the jungle may not be as strong as a 10 year old tree grown near the kapuas river and tended to.

If anyone here has seen an actual tree being harvested or know how they do it - I’d sure be interested in learning more about it.

For the older trees, they climb the tree and cut the branches in a way they will grow back. Then remove the leaf from the branches, dry and grind,as well as hopefully wash. Ive seen videos but heres a pic from my site of some of the process.

[beathappening]

Just a quick update...
I decided to stagger out my dose, so instead of 8g at once, 4g them 30 minutes later the other 4g, and had really good results. Not only did it kick in earlier (still over an hour though) but it seemed to be stronger too. Now this could be the result of some other factor I haven't yet pinned down, but I'm going to try a similar thing over the next few days and narrow it down. I don't want to jump to conclusions yet, there are just so many variables.

I do also take propranolol and a serotonin drug (Prozac), among others, but took those much later than usual today

Tl;Dr another post saying possibly less is more is a real thing

[herbalhippie]

Propanolol might be your problem, beathappening.

I found a study for pray4peace4 when they reported possible lessening of kratom effects while taking propanolol

Propranolol, a β-adrenergic blocking agent, is useful in the treatment of heroin addiction. It prevents the euphoric effects of heroin...

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanc ... 9/fulltext

here is the original thread on r/kratom

https://old.reddit.com/r/kratom/comment ... opranolol/

[beathappening]

I will try not taking it at all tomorrow and seeing what happens. I usually take it three times a day, so it's always in my system. I didn't know that it did that with heroin!

[herbalhippie]

I will try not taking it at all tomorrow and seeing what happens. I usually take it three times a day, so it's always in my system. I didn't know that it did that with heroin!

Do you take it for blood pressure? If so, you had better continue on taking it. I used to take atenolol, same family, slightly different pathway of working. You need to taper down, not just stop. Even for one day. Be careful!

I never had any problem with atenolol blocking kratoms effects or making it take longer to work. I have switched to clonidine for my blood pressure because atenolol might have been making my asthma worse.

[beathappening]

No, I take it for anxiety. I don't think it's going to be much of a problem to skip a couple just so I can check it off the list.
I'm not convinced it is the problem though.

[herbalhippie]

No, I take it for anxiety. I don't think it's going to be much of a problem to skip a couple just so I can check it off the list.
I'm not convinced it is the problem though.

Ok.

I used to take atenolol for anxiety, then my blood pressure started creeping up so I just stayed on it. These beta blockers are amazing for anxiety, they work as well as benzos for me and don't make me sleepy.

[beathappening]

I'm ready to say that yes, the propranolol is the culprit. I've dosed multiple times since I stopped taking it and have been getting effects within an hour. I don't know how I could have gone this long without realizing it, because I would still get good burns sometimes sporadically, just never connected the two. Kinda embarrassing. The good news is that a lot of the kratom I have that I thought was weak is actually probably just fine.
Thanks to those that commented, I'm glad I posted this thread because who knows how long it would've taken otherwise.

[e_poison]

Just a quick update...
I decided to stagger out my dose, so instead of 8g at once, 4g them 30 minutes later the other 4g, and had really good results. Not only did it kick in earlier (still over an hour though) but it seemed to be stronger too.

This is pretty much what I do. Staggering is great because it lets you fine tune your dose and also lets you stretch out the burn. I start with like 4g and then add 2g every 30-45 min or so until I get to where I want to be - whether that's pain relief or relaxation. It also has the added bonus of preventing me from taking too much. No need to take 10g (normal dose) if I don't need all 10g on that particular day.

[herbalhippie]

I'm ready to say that yes, the propranolol is the culprit. I've dosed multiple times since I stopped taking it and have been getting effects within an hour. I don't know how I could have gone this long without realizing it, because I would still get good burns sometimes sporadically, just never connected the two. Kinda embarrassing. The good news is that a lot of the kratom I have that I thought was weak is actually probably just fine.
Thanks to those that commented, I'm glad I posted this thread because who knows how long it would've taken otherwise.

Excellent.

Also, if you don't want to take propanolol anymore, ask your doc about clonidine. It's pretty good for anxiety too and doesn't seem to block the effects of kratom.

[pray4peace4]

2 things to comment on. Yes propranolol impairs the kratom experience. I know first hand. I started postponing my morning dose so I could enjoy my morning kratom. Even so I've noticed a decline in effects. I'm not that much of an ol' time user but I still have batches from 2016 that were fantastic. They don't do much anymore either. So at least for me, the problem seems to be internal. Plus I've noticed that greens & reds have switched effects. Reds now are incredibly stimulating & greens knock me out. Really bizarre.

BTW it's dangerous to stop propranolol all at once. It can kill yah. If you feel your heart pounding violently, that's propranolol withdrawal & you need to take some. Wean off slowly. Be careful. I love propranolol, except for the kratom side effect.

[beathappening]

Does anyone know if statins affect kratom? I didn't find anything from Google searching. I'm thinking they do...

I take atorvastatin aka lipitor, and I missed a couple days. And wow kratom hasn't felt like this in a long time. It's kicking in in only a half hour now, and hard. Nothing else has changed, I'm still taking the same strains in the same amounts. I really think it was the main reason why it was taking so long. I even took my propranolol but skipped lipitor and still having great results. It's such a significant change, this is what i remember kratom being like from years ago, it's incredible.

[whiffypants]

I don't know specifically about statins in combination with kratom, BUT kratom is a highly lipophilic substance that gets a lot more traction in combination with fats, especially in the small intestine but quite possibly also in the blood. Statins are, to put it simply, fat-blockers for the blood.

So it really doesn't surprise me that you're saying this. Lipophilic alkaloids in combination with lipid-lowering meds would definitely seem to have the potential to interact negatively, for one or both substances.

I'm just sorry I don't have the scientific teeth to dig into it further myself, because it makes perfect sense on the surface.

[beathappening]

That's great info. I'm just overjoyed to get the magic back, and to finally have solved that mystery. I thought it was all my tolerance...freakin meds. All the kratom I've wasted...

[herbalhippie]

I take atorvastatin aka lipitor.

I just spent 6 months on a VERY low fat diet and then 4 more months on an anti-inflammatory/Mediterranean diet getting my cholesterol levels sorted out. I won't take statins and my PCP threatened me with them.

Cholesterol sorted, 40 pounds lost.

[beathappening]

I was prescribed it after I rapidly gained 90lbs. from psychotropic medications they put me on (shout-out zyprexa, another one that blocks kratom coincidentally) so I was fairly unhealthy and surely needed it. Now that I've lost (almost) all that weight, I don't know if it's even necessary to keep taking. I'm certainly not taking it anymore. It's weird how several of the meds they put me on also happen to block or dull kratom, it's like they know
Congrats on the weight loss btw

[herbalhippie]

Thank you, beathappening.

Funny, you never know what weird side effects you're going to get from a medication. Even one you've had before.