Immune to kratom...at least for now

[boureka]

Hello all. I've had the usual ups and downs with kràtom hitting over the years and have successfully tried many remedies. I've done tapers, lowered my doses, I rotate vendors and batches. Since May, my dose is between 1.75-2.0 usually tid. I've tried red bubble, tho I missed my toss and wash, believe it or not. I've staggered, taken with grapefruit juice, eaten peanut butter sometime after my dose. Some of these methods were fruitful (especially the grapefruit ). I've always experienced flat days, sometimes a few in a row which, mercifully, ended. I've often noticed one thing: I'll try a new vendor's hot "strain" and it'll be total fire. Return to it in my rotation and it'll be fire, but less. Return to it again and even less. Luckily, there's sufficient great vendors with new batches so I've been okay. Lately, however, even my tried and trues aren't hitting. At all. I was a few days at bid and the past couple of days at once/day. Crickets. I've never taken a complete break.
Years ago, I took Ambien for sleep. After a while, I had to double my dose, and a while after that, it stopped working entirely. I had become immune. Same thing had happened with Tylenol PM. I feel like I permanently changed my chemistry to become immune.(Now I take nothing or kràtom as my sleep is better. I'm glad to be rid of the Rx)
IMPORTANT : I should also say that I've had some kind of bug in my system and have been flat on my back for the past week and a half. It feels exactly like the long COVID I had a year ago...where I have absolutely no energy and go from couch to chair out of breath. (I'm usually pretty active.) It's so damn depressing.
Any advice or thoughts from the wise people here? Help!

[Kelleytoons]

The first thing that occurs to me is - how regular are you? You mention a lot of things but you don't mention that, and if you don't have regular BMs that could be your whole issue (and it IS something that can change depending on your eating habits. Particularly if you aren't feeling well, which you say you are not, you can change how you eat and thus how you... go).

Also along those lines - I was trying to pinpoint what the heck happened to me in terms of suddenly (after years) kratom hitting so GOOD. IOW, like a lot of folks I've had the ups and downs but suddenly, a few months ago, everything started hitting as good as it did when I first started kratom. EVERYTHING. Even so-so stuff was, like, the best.

For the most part that has continued (just last night I took TFH 24k Balik Especial which, TBH, was not all that "especiale" to me when I first got it. Wow - now I rate it as one of the best I've ever taken). In an effort to figure out what the heck I might be doing differently ("where did I go right?") the only major change I could figure out was our daughter came back to live with us which kind of changed my eating schedules. I won't go into details (you can read that thread if you're interested) but it *might* have been the trick. So perhaps you could examine what your life was, in terms of food intake (and, to repeat, your BM) and see if it's different in some way you can change back to when kratom WAS working for you. At the very least I would make sure you are eating LOTS of fiber foods (100% whole wheat, etc).

[Nelson Baboon]

i've been lucky and haven't been sick in quite some time. But in my experience with having 'bugs' in my life it makes perfect sense that this might be the cause of things not hitting now. I remember that when i was sick, smoking weed for instance, wouldn't do much, etc. i think that it's hard for the kratom to 'break through' if you're sick. But i don't have the experience of trying kratom and being sick, so i'm just totally guessing.

[boureka]

@kelleytoons
Oh yeah... my digestion in and out is fine...tho my appetite is off since I've had this bug. One of our kids has a similar problem but hasn't had a taper so I can't comment on her issues until she LOWERS her damn dose. I've known a fellow dog owner for years who keeps changing meds (sleep and SSRIs) when they stop working. Why do they stop working?I just wonder if I altered my receptors in a semi(?) permanent way. Say it ain't so!

[IdiopathicPain247]

I am sorry your feeling sick. I read reddits long covid posts because I have some similar issues. So much of our struggles are going undiagnosed, and even if they knew the cause/s they would use RX drugs to "help" us. "Caught between a rock and a hard place". I hope you get on track soon.

[Kelleytoons]

.tho my appetite is off since I've had this bug.

But that could be it. As I said, while I haven't (as yet) pinned down what changed for me that made kratom START working amazingly all the time, I think it has to do with eating in a different pattern. If you aren't eating what you used to eat it could be the entire reason.

As others have said, though, until you are completely well I'm not sure I'd even worry yet. Sickness is bound to affect a ton of things, and when you are "back to normal" so may your kratom experience be.

[boureka]

@ kelleytoons
Yes to the eating. I agree. But what about the other feature I described, which isn't new...and that is that I have a virgin/honeymoon experience with a new and fire strain that I don't ever QUITE recapture. A good batch remains a good batch but it slowly diminishes on repeated tho sporadic usage? Anyone have this problem? I have the feeling this may never have happened if I were the occasional kratomite.

[Kelleytoons]

I guess it depends on how you define "sporadic". More than once ever two weeks? And during that time were you using stuff from different vendors, or mostly the same?

I can't speak for others, but my rotation is about 80+ (meaning I don't take the same batch more than once every two months or so). Now, *most* of my kratom is from TFH and Denette, but I also have at least 10 other vendors scattered in there, and attempt every several days to use one. I don't pretend this is science - it could be that every single batch I take is from the exact same farmer (unlikely with TFH - it's pretty clear they have farmers that do NOT sell their batches to anyone else) but for me this rotation works. The "fire" stays fire even my third, fourth, fifth go-around (but that's over the course of a year for it to happen).

There are at least a few experienced folks who say rotation is BS - but if you have issues you can't solve any other way it certainly seems to me that altering your rotation is the first place to start. So don't take that "fire" batch for at least another month or two and then see what happens.

[boureka]

Ok..so my son (MD) suspects I may have COVID even after a negative rapid at home test..and maybe that's it. I'm so supremely fatigued that I took some Adderall! And guess what, I felt nothing. So maybe a virus is blocking everything.
That notwithstanding...
I do NOT have a rotation nearly as impressive as Kelleytoons and if I hit a super fire batch, I'll return to it in 5 days, because I'm famously impatient that way. I certainly could stand some improvement here. I can't have a file cabinet of vendor envelopes in a rotating order because there are 3 ft kratomites in this house. And regular visitors. So I keep notes and try to space things out.
I assume when this bug passes, I'll return to my regular unpredictable kratom responsiveness.

[goinssonya9]

Ok..so my son (MD) suspects I may have COVID even after a negative rapid at home test..and maybe that's it. I'm so supremely fatigued that I took some Adderall! And guess what, I felt nothing. So maybe a virus is blocking everything.
That notwithstanding...
I do NOT have a rotation nearly as impressive as Kelleytoons and if I hit a super fire batch, I'll return to it in 5 days, because I'm famously impatient that way. I certainly could stand some improvement here. I can't have a file cabinet of vendor envelopes in a rotating order because there are 3 ft kratomites in this house. And regular visitors. So I keep notes and try to space things out.
I assume when this bug passes, I'll return to my regular unpredictable kratom responsiveness.

When I had covid last summer, my doses didn't hit for over 3 weeks. They completely stopped working a week BEFORE I even had any covid symptoms. And still didn't work for a week after I got over covid. I would very much think that its because you're sick, esp since adderall didn't help either.

I have discovered (the hard way) that if I take a strain any sooner than two weeks, it has very little effects. I actually tape a post it to the back of the bag and write down the date so that I can keep up with when I took it last. Any sooner than two weeks and its a wasted dose.

Good luck and hope you're feeling better soon!

[boureka]

Very helpful. Thanks.

[RedWhiteAndGreen]

Very helpful. Thanks.

Have you tried potentiating with things such as:

Agmatine (nearly doubles the strength of a dose in many cases so use with care. Take 1/2tsp 20 mins prior)
Ginger (enhances dose. Take 1tsp before, during, or after)
Turmeric (enhances dose. Take 1tsp 20 mins prior)
Citric acid (enhances. Take during or after)
People often suggest magnesium but this supplement has always had diminished effects for me so I don't recommend it.
And my latest discovery is Trader Joe's Jalapeno Limeade (or similar product) taken after the dose is like throwing gas on a fire.

Also make sure you're getting good sleep. And even a couple adult beverages / other intoxicants the night before can significantly reduce effects the following day, including a late burn the night prior, with the exception in my case being kava. Kava seems to be a good alternative when you're trying to reduce your leaf consumption, so that can be enjoyed in the evening in lieu of the leaf.

Good luck friend

[boureka]

@ redwhiteandgreen
Thank you! You know I bought agmatine some time ago but never took it because I read (here) that it while it enhances the analgesic properties of kratom, it dampens others such as mood lift etc. But at this point, what do I have to lose?
So apparently I have POTS (postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome) which I developed
and which comprised my long COVID a year ago. Just makes you really exhausted and dizzy upon standing or bending over and winded from nothing. (I'm normally pretty active.) And while it pretty much abated after a couple of months, it returned with a bang after I contracted some viral bug two weeks ago. Damn you COVID! That shit STAYS with you! It'll pass, soon, I hope. Meanwhile my burns are non-existent or severely muted, like taking a shower with your clothes on.
Will try the agmatine today and try the jalapenos soon with citrus.

[RedWhiteAndGreen]

@ redwhiteandgreen
Thank you! You know I bought agmatine some time ago but never took it because I read (here) that it while it enhances the analgesic properties of kratom, it dampens others such as mood lift etc. But at this point, what do I have to lose?
So apparently I have POTS (postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome) which I developed
and which comprised my long COVID a year ago. Just makes you really exhausted and dizzy upon standing or bending over and winded from nothing. (I'm normally pretty active.) And while it pretty much abated after a couple of months, it returned with a bang after I contracted some viral bug two weeks ago. Damn you COVID! That shit STAYS with you! It'll pass, soon, I hope. Meanwhile my burns are non-existent or severely muted, like taking a shower with your clothes on.
Will try the agmatine today and try the jalapenos soon with citrus.

Agmatine could potentially intensify the POTS dizziness, so be sure to try that in a safe environment. All of these things work differently for everyone so it's kind of a trial and error process. Hope you recover fully soon @boureka!

[Jfish030]

Take a break, make sure your taking less too 2-3grams is easy to work from if your not getting effects there you have some room to use more.

[boureka]

Update:
I'm on my first ever t break. Today is day 6. Not sure if this can be called a complete break because on days 3&5, I had a 3 gm dose of ff javanica. It was great both times.
In all my years, I've never done a complete break. Ideally, I'd like to go 2 weeks, but the thought of that is daunting so I'm on a one day at a time schedule. Hoping for a second honeymoon when I return.
Oh, I should mention, I had literally zero physical withdrawal symptoms. But I sorely miss my friend, Mit.

[FartBlaster]

Best way to do a t break is cut your dose in half for 2 weeks. I've tried quitting for 2 weeks and half dose for 2 weeks and gotten the EXACT same effect. So there's no reason to stop for a couple weeks unless you just want to , most people don't enjoy stopping and the return you get isn't worth it.

[Kelleytoons]

I think we mentioned this earlier in the thread, but it does bear repeating. Lowering your dose with kratom is never a bad thing, and I, too, have done the exact same thing (just lowered my dose WAY down) for a week or so and found it was just as effective as taking a two week break.

The important thing is to find what works for you but if you try total abstinence and find it impossible then taking a MUCH smaller dose is something you definitely ought to try before returning to "normal" (you might surprise yourself and find that much smaller dose works just fine).

[BallzDeep9]

Hoping for a second honeymoon when I return.... I sorely miss my friend, Mit.

L.E.D. = Lowest Effective Dose... I'd go even further than JFish suggestion. 1 gram!!

Start back @ 1+ gram per Serving. Good quality leaf, empty stomach... 1st thing in morning, if that's your regular jam. You may discover, it's just fine. Enough to feel fine all AM through breakfast... that's about where I'm at for a "baseline" serving. I go about 7+ grams into six servings... Cold Tea in the fridge. That's enough for 2 or 3 days!

Lately my habit is ~ to "spike" my Late afternoon serving with Extract... So I'm getting the same # Leaf but boosting the Mit. (careful measure Extract for 15mg = to 1 gram plain leaf.) OR - For a treat I could enjoy a "Double shot" 2 grams kratom... Since I've trained my body on 1 gram... then 2 is a guaranteed effect!! ~ Anyone can try this Baseline, LED method off a break. You can always move up.

[marvelous]

I went through this phase and thought I was broken. had to do a t-break unfortunately.

[boureka]

I went through this phase and thought I was broken. had to do a t-break unfortunately.

Of what duration? And how effective was it?

[Greenmonster]

Update:
I'm on my first ever t break. Today is day 6. Not sure if this can be called a complete break because on days 3&5, I had a 3 gm dose of ff javanica. It was great both times.
In all my years, I've never done a complete break. Ideally, I'd like to go 2 weeks, but the thought of that is daunting so I'm on a one day at a time schedule. Hoping for a second honeymoon when I return.
Oh, I should mention, I had literally zero physical withdrawal symptoms. But I sorely miss my friend, Mit.

How is your break coming along?

[boureka]

"How is your break coming along?"
Funny you should ask. After day 6, I ended my break with something new to me, a well touted (in this community) and well liked (in my family) strain: crickets. The next morning, don't recall what I had. Also crickets. I dosed with my old dose, around 1.8g. The following afternoon I had my all-time 2023 favorite, drhk3 from heavenleaf and finally a breakthrough! I'm not totally broken!!
I suspect something is up with me and my long COVID relapse plus a propensity in my wiring to have "bent" receptors.
As of this morning, I'm (fingers crossed) embarking on a 10-14 day t break. May the force be with me!

[Kelleytoons]

I had something odd happen to me.

I was going along just great, six months with everything hitting like fire. And then, just for fun, I starting taking Agmatine with my dose. At first it worked a treat - seemed to boost everything up nicely. But then kratom got turned off for me. So I stopped with the Agmatine (of course) but I was still broken for about three days. I thought "I had better take a break" and I had three days planned but I *really* needed some after a hard tennis match so I took some and... all was back to normal (minus the Agmatine, which I don't think I'll ever try again).

Our bodies and kratom are... weird. I wish I could figure this stuff out. But at least I'm working again, without having to take a break.

[boureka]

I had something odd happen to me.

I was going along just great, six months with everything hitting like fire. And then, just for fun, I starting taking Agmatine with my dose. At first it worked a treat - seemed to boost everything up nicely. But then kratom got turned off for me. So I stopped with the Agmatine (of course) but I was still broken for about three days. I thought "I had better take a break" and I had three days planned but I *really* needed some after a hard tennis match so I took some and... all was back to normal (minus the Agmatine, which I don't think I'll ever try again).

Our bodies and kratom are... weird. I wish I could figure this stuff out. But at least I'm working again, without having to take a break.

You know .on my break I took agmatine because I figured, why not. I'm on a break. It's not like I was taking it WITH my kratom. Still, I wonder if that affected my responsiveness on return after the break. Hmm .. I learned here, on double m, that agmatine enhances the analgesic properties of kratom but dampens the euphoric lift so that's probably what happened to you, Kelley.
Here's a musical interlude for this lovely Sunday for those who wish..
https://youtu.be/6GkdCiqsFUI

Tedeschi Trucks Band Midnight in Harlem. You're welcome
https://youtu.be/6GkdCiqsFUI

[pray4peace4]

boureka...here's a couple things to try if all the other suggestions don't work.

- Lower your dose to .75g or 1g of one specific strain of kratom you take, & don't dose more than 3x a day. If you can't go to sleep because of wd, take a 1g dose right before bed. Keep the dose that small until you get that experience you're looking for. It usually takes 3 days to work for me.

- I used to poo-poo the advice to keep your intestines empty. Now I'm a believer. Get yourself some powdered polyethylene glycol, also called Miralax, & take 1 dose every night. It doesn't cause diarrhea at the standard dose & everything will move quite well. It works for returning your kratom-love because kratom causes constipation, & that causes everything in your digestive system to move slowly. You're trying to get the entire dose of kratom in your intestines at the same time instead of a little at a time. Don't take the Miralax for more than 7 days.

Long COVID... I just got over mine. That was awful. I literally couldn't function. And nobody was going to mow the lawns other than me so I'd try, & then I'd get the tachycardia like you. The docs gave me metoprolol, which helped a lot, but I was still so tired I thought I was going to die. As I'm sure you found out, most doctors have no idea what to do to cure it. But there are doctors who do know. The spike protein is made by the virus and is what the vaccine causes your body's cell to mass produce. It's toxic. That's why folks get so sick from the virus, but also are getting sick from the vaccine that turned your body into a spike protein factory. Nicotine has greater affinity to your body's receptors than the spike protein, so it can cause your body to release & excrete the spike protein. Get some nicotine gum & chew 1/4 to 1/2 tab a day. Do that for 5 days. Then, if you can, force yourself to take 4-8 hour naps every other day. Sleep puts your body into regeneration mode, where it creates new energy-packed molecules for your body's function & destroys chemicals & cells that are hurting you. I did these 2 things & I could feel my body begin to recover after 2 days. It took me a week of that before I felt somewhat normal again. I have a little ways still to go but am so happy to be set free. A good reference website for COVID & Long COVID treatment is America's Frontline Doctors:

https://americasfrontlinedoctors.org/medical

[boureka]

@ pray4peace4
"boureka...here's a couple things to try if all the other suggestions don't work."
That's some serious and detailed advice. Thanks!
So as I mentioned, July 2022, I developed long COVID for a couple of months which 90-95% resolved and I was satisfied. Then this past July, I contracted garden variety virus which reactivated the long COVID stuff, the POTS. Arrgghh! Which seems to make my kratom responsiveness really muted or non-existent. So I'm on a t break right now. One day at a time. I will return at a very low dose.

[mivanqua]

So the way it's running is you are getting viruses and it's bringing back the long COVID and making your kratom not work? That's BULLSHIT!

The amplifying viruses part was the part I was most afraid of. How your body learns to fight COVID really well because your body is just producing the spike proteins constantly and eventually your body HAS to learn how to fight it, but is unable to fight the other umpteen million corona viruses that frequent this planet with us. The thought of dying of the common cold scared (scareS me really) and that is what the auto-immune disorder that is a moderately common side effect sounds like to my ears. Yikes.

I'm a one percenter, some shit like that is 100% going to take me out. Something that kills basically nobody else, like a wild yogurt bacteria or "the common cold." Watch.

It's educational in one way and that is I was going to give some kratom to this very old friend of mine who is suffering from the same thing and she lost her job and didn't even complain because she "couldn't do it anymore." She was a CASHIER! Sucks that it won't help her. A LOT.

TO WIT : This was the first girl I got drunk with, Mickey's bigmouths when I was eighteen, and when she was driving me home, in my alcoholic stupor, i saw what it was people saw in living this life. It was a life-changing moment and she was part of it all.

She was a punk as fuck lesbian(and she turned me on to Billy Childish/Thee Milkshakes, PJ Harvey, like SO MANY BANDS) and i hate seeing her like this.

Here

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5 ... hFTOZFhRG8

Pretty sure most of you guys haven't heard of the Milkshakes.
It says 2018, but really it's from the mid 80s.

[boureka]

Dunno if the POTS is behind my kratom unresponsiveness... speculation, nothing more.
Can't WAIT for my t break to conclude and see for myself.

[brassy]

Wow, that's really too bad. In the three to four years I have used kratom daily there was only one time when I felt zero effects, and it was product related. I wanted to try crushed leaf and my usual vendors didn't sell it so I randomly ordered from the website that had the biggest selection, but every strain was bunk. But here are couple of things that seem to work from me to avoid tolerance:

1) You said your digestion is fine but I know if I let myself get even slightly constipated, it doesn't hit the way it should. Granted, I have several gut surgeries and also have a motility disorder, but you could try a colon cleanse or a few days of juice fasting, no solids, if you are desperate. I am a devout believer of 6 tablespoons of fiber a day plus mag citrate -- never want to experience kratom constipation ever again. My theory is that kratom gums up the intestinal walls and blocks absorption -- but that's me talking out of my ass , not science).
2) What about grapefruit juice? A lot of people in this forum have said it seems to a potentiator.
I never gave it much credence but I have polycystic kidney disease and after coming across a scientific study saying that a grapefruit bioflavanoid called naringin helped to dissolve cysts, I went all in, adding grapefruit juice to all my water and also taking two 500mg capsules of naringin each day as a supplement.

Whether it will keep me off dialysis, who the hell knows, but without trying to taper or anything, I noticed I am taking fewer doses of kratom each day. (I used to take three or even four 3-gram doses a day and now it seems like I only need two).

Anyhow, the naringin capsules were cheap if you want to give it a shot (currently $7.41 for a bottle of 60 at Swanson's) It seems to be good for a lot of health problems besides mine -- here's a roundup article from a medical journal:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6469163/

[boureka]

@ brassy
Thanks so much for the thoughtful reply. I looked up naragin and it seems like a wonderful substance except that it's good for lowering blood pressure. Great for lots of folks but with the long COVID/POTS, my pressure is already too low.
As far as my kratom immunity, I took 8 days with no kratom and went back. (Loved the javanica , not so the hirsuta ) The long COVID episode was subsiding too and I found some responsiveness to kratom! Not fantastic but some. I wasn't able to lower my dose (which is now around 1.9 with an addition 45 min later of approximately .8). My burns are muted and short lived.. but they're
there No real legs but something, at least.
I'm happy to have something

[mivanqua]

@ brassy
Thanks so much for the thoughtful reply. I looked up naragin and it seems like a wonderful substance except that it's good for lowering blood pressure. Great for lots of folks but with the long COVID/POTS, my pressure is already too low.
As far as my kratom immunity, I took 8 days with no kratom and went back. (Loved the javanica , not so the hirsuta ) The long COVID episode was subsiding too and I found some responsiveness to kratom! Not fantastic but some. I wasn't able to lower my dose (which is now around 1.9 with an addition 45 min later of approximately .8). My burns are muted and short lived.. but they're
there No real legs but something, at least.
I'm happy to have something

That's a great start. I'm so glad to hear this, I was absolutely wondering how that all culminated. I would not know what to do if kratom stopped working for me. That would, in essence, be the end of me, the guy who enjoys for to live.

[Lokey]

I recently received a new order and was excited to try my new batches and started the next morning and...nothing. I was pretty sure it was me but 2-3 days later same story. I thought it strange because I'd just made a batch of psyllium cookies that had cleaned me out so thought that should help but then I thought maybe the psyllium is absorbing too much of the alkaloids. I googled it and found that yes, psyllium can interfere with absorption of some supplements, vitamins or medicines. So, stopped eating my cookies! Thought I'd eat them before sleep instead of for breakfast but I'm never that hungry cuz I eat a lot at night.

[brave777]

I usually when i feel like i need a break and kratom not hitting much, i take a week off, i strictly use coffee and vitamins. never not even runny nose. just pain comes back how it suppose to, like if you pinch your self you can feel it. kratom is hands down best pain reliever and its organic. all pain products are trash compare to kratom. as long your in a good mood and have your vitamins, depression should not be an issue since kratom removes all depression, especially if you have some clean good kratom around. Honestly i enjoyed no kratom as well and didnt want to take any , no kratom is like a new drug since you get to feel pain in a good way and you can smell eveything again in garden!!! ahh i miss that. down side to kratom, it does remove smells or smells are not as strong any more if you are daily user and sex not as enjoyabe compare to 3 days off. but if you suffer pain you dont need smells or feeling pain or depression. For sure if your immune take a full week an stick with good foods to avoid feeling sick, i did rememvber i was taking break and was eating fast food, i felt lazy and super unmotivated over healthier foods or you cook it your self. just heads up

[boureka]

OP here. I did take 8 days off. With javanica (yay!) & tried hirsuta (yuk). My first couple of doses upon return were wipe outs so I figured I was broken...but now they are coming back! M No real legs but 70% are hits !!! so I'm thrilled. I was going to wait a little more before posting but thought I'd just respond.

[Badgame85]

I recently received a new order and was excited to try my new batches and started the next morning and...nothing. I was pretty sure it was me but 2-3 days later same story. I thought it strange because I'd just made a batch of psyllium cookies that had cleaned me out so thought that should help but then I thought maybe the psyllium is absorbing too much of the alkaloids. I googled it and found that yes, psyllium can interfere with absorption of some supplements, vitamins or medicines. So, stopped eating my cookies! Thought I'd eat them before sleep instead of for breakfast but I'm never that hungry cuz I eat a lot at night.

How did this work for you? I also take Psyllium in raw powder form (mixed in yogurt/smoothies) because I have had several GI surgeries and lost my entire colon to Ulcerative Colitis in 2016. I'm fine now and living without any "external device assistance" lol but still take the husk powder on the reg like clockwork. Curious if this may be affecting things for me.