Kratom and melatonin?

[e_poison]

Yesterday I picked up some melatonin and going to try that for insomnia. They are 3mg pills, and it says to take 1 around 30 minutes before bed.

I normally take 50-75mg of Benadryl with my nightly Kratom dose but it’s losing its effectiveness.

Does anyone here take melatonin with Kratom? Any weird or negative side effects from taking them together?

[whiffypants]

Yep. I take it for my pancreas, though, and not for sleep. (Obviously. ) 10 mg daily with dinner. I never noticed it had an effect with or on kratom one way or the other.

But a word to the wise: back in the day when I was taking it for sleep, I got a lot better results with 1mg pills than I ever did with anything higher. Less is more with melatonin, so if 9mg doesn't do it for you, try 1mg, or even .5 mg before you give up on it -- you may find it knocks you right out.

But Benadryl loses its effectiveness for me after one night, so I'm always surprised that it works longer than that for others. You may find that another option like hydroxyzine (an antihistamine) or even doxepin or trazodone (tricyclics specifically marketed for sleep) is a better solution in the long run. They require a script but they're very cheap and quite effective. I can't take them because of other interactions but I would if I could, in a heartbeat.

Especially doxepin: that stuff was like Valium for me. 25mg if I wanted to sleep well, and 50mg if I wanted to be hit by a wrecking ball. Safe, non-addictive, and cheap as hell too. But it does not play well with a more crucial med I have to take, so that was that.

Good luck with the melatonin!

[texisman]

I do sometimes but I'm not a huge fan of melatonin, I prefer some cheap "sleep-aid" brand I get at my local grocery store. It works better for me.

I have not had any bad effects from combing either of them though.

[herbalhippie]

Melatonin 3 mg works for me, but I've never tried it with kratom.

Flexeril (cyclobenzeprine) is the best sleep aid I know. Half a pill an hour before bedtime and I'm good for the night.

[whiffypants]

Yup, Flexeril is the bomb. But for me it's hard to get, so I save 'em for special occasions... and then forget I even have any, heh.

[herbalhippie]

Yup, Flexeril is the bomb. But for me it's hard to get, so I save 'em for special occasions... and then forget I even have any, heh.

I'm allowed 90 a month if I want them. I take 15 a month, just for sleep.

[e_poison]

But a word to the wise: back in the day when I was taking it for sleep, I got a lot better results with 1mg pills than I ever did with anything higher. Less is more with melatonin, so if 9mg doesn't do it for you, try 1mg, or even .5 mg before you give up on it -- you may find it knocks you right out.

I saw that when I was researching it online. People saying they got better result with smaller doses. Thanks!

As for the RX stuff, trying to avoid, but I've had insomnia so long and so bad, maybe it's time.

[whiffypants]

Yeah. I've had it most of my life, but horribly bad for the last twenty years, and it can get much worse when you hit your fifties and sixties. If you get a hold of it now, you may be able to retrain your brain to let you sleep naturally so that when you hit the old-man-up-with-the-roosters stage of life it won't be worse than it has to be, which is where I am. And it's possible RX meds will be a necessary part of that; they were for me, for a while.

For the last few years I have had it mostly controlled with non-pharma methods, but even now occasionally I find that the only way to break a long stretch of it is to find something knockout. I have a few things I keep in reserve for that and literally never take otherwise, but fortunately it seems like once I break the stretch I don't need it anymore and only have to take it one night. My kratom tincture is one, muscle relaxants are another, and as an absolute last resort an opiate. Since I never take them otherwise -- I might literally take only one or two a year -- they remain effective when I need them without danger of addiction or tolerance buildup.

By contrast, the three meds that I listed above are non-narcotic/non-addictive meds that you can take as needed, both as single use meds or for stretches of time, and come right off of with no problem. I had a -little- bit of rebound insomnia with doxepin when I stopped its use, probably because I had been taking it for a while, but it was very mild (delayed sleep, not no sleep) and only lasted a couple of days. The other two, nothing. And they've been around for decades, so the understanding of their clinical effects and drawbacks is rock solid with each.

Breaking an Ambien habit? THAT was hard. I would not wish that on anyone else, ever. But these three, no, and none will give a doctor pause if you ask him for a script, nor will you ever find yourself in a jam because the DEA got involved in their use and now a doc won't prescribe them anymore. Hence my recommendation. Good luck!

[Devil_Dog21]

@Whiffypants, why did you say that about Ambien? I just started taking Ambien after years of insomnia...I notice Kratom helped a lot with falling asleep and Ambien has been hit or miss for me. In fact, once when I was overseas it (ambien) had the opposite effect but I also stopped taking Kratom then too so not sure if it was more the absence of Kratom or the Ambien. Now I'm taking both (Kratom and Ambien) and I've slept pretty good.

[whiffypants]

Breaking an Ambien habit? THAT was hard. I would not wish that on anyone else, ever.

The problem with Ambien is that when you've been taking it daily or even weekly for a while, when you stop the rebound insomnia is truly vicious. You can taper somewhat, but it's still absolute hell, and for about a year's worth of Ambien use the rebound insomnia was good for about two months for me, and plenty of those nights were sleep-free altogether. They are also somewhat mood lifting and euphoric, which you find out when you take one and don't actually fall asleep: it's like you smoked a bowl and quite pleasant. And you can amplify that effect with other substances, like alcohol. Psychologically I got to where I expected bedtime to be that way, and quitting makes nighttime a whole lot less welcoming. So there's that too.

If I still had any, I would probably throw them out just to make sure I never had to go through all that again.

In my own personal, non-scientific and anecdotal opinion, used on an as-needed basis -- let's say no more than once or twice a month -- Ambien is pretty safe with no danger of withdrawal. Ditto Lunesta and the rest of the current pharma sleep aids. But once you get into regular use -- multiple times a week or daily -- coming off is truly bad news. At least it was for me. Hence my above suggestion of antihistamine/TCA based sleep aids that don't carry the same withdrawal risks with regular use.

YMMV, of course.

[Devil_Dog21]

Thanks Whiffypants...I don't get the mood enhancer you mentioned when taking Ambien. I've had it for about 8 months now and only in the past 8 weeks have I really started taking it regularly. I'm nervous based on your experiences but I don't really have a better option today.

I've had insomnia for as long as I can remember but it definitely goes in cycles meaning some times I would go months without a solid night of sleep while other times I was fine for a month. I've never been a big sleeper, my body does fine on 6 hours and there's only a few times in my whole LIFE that I've slept more than 8 hrs. My doc has confirmed that everyone is different and since I don't get tired during the day 6 hours is pretty much the sweet spot.

I've tried pretty much every over the counter option and some work better than others but in the end they all seem to lose their effectiveness. Kratom has been a godsend as it has helped me along the way. I've combined Kratom with Benadryl off and on, that has worked but I've heard that can be addicting too hence my request from the doc for Ambien. For the near future I can't afford to have sleepless nights as my big project at work is reaching it's peak. I travel heavily for work and sleeping in unfamiliar beds (hotels) always negatively affects me. To stay on top of my game the Ambien will have to be my go to until September when things start to slow down.

Thanks for the insight.

-DD

[e_poison]

Update on the melatonin: it works. But, very vivid and wild dreams. I read that is because it puts you into deep REM sleep. It also makes me a bit groggy in the morning, but I'm sure I'll get used to that eventually. Benadryl used to do that all the time too, and now I rarely feel tired in the morning from it.

Had some super crazy dreams this past week, especially last night.

[whiffypants]

Awesome, man! I'd take the dreams as long as I got some sleep to go with them. I'm kinda jealous!

That new intensity and number of dreams should wear off within a week or two, though.

IMO -- and take it with a grain of salt -- that has less to do with the melatonin and more to do with your brain clearing out a backlog of the mental/emotional processing that happens during sleep. To me the dreams are a sign that the sleep you're getting is a -healthy- sleep, and that you haven't had much in a while. It'll peter out in a week or two down to a new normal, though you'll probably still have more dreams than you remember having had before melatonin, maybe for a month or so.

Enjoy the late night picture show, E!