Weird batches from RVA over the past year or so.

[sknabc]

This thread was inspired by another thread I saw a week or so ago where a user claimed to have the same problem. I understand maybe there is good reason to take those words with a grain of salt, but I wanted to share my experience.

I've been ordering from RVA exclusively for about 2-3 years now.

In that time frame I've had 2 (now 3) bad batches. Both from strains that I have had multiple times before. And I've had one friend receive a bad batch as well.

The first was Green Hulu. I was on my 3rd or 4th consecutive kilo of that strain and batch no. Got it in. Same batch number (unfortunately I don't have pics or the bags anymore, this was many months ago). I was taking around 16g per dose at the time. I got the most intense wobbles I ever had with this kilo. I ended up cutting my dose to 8g just to not get wobbles, but at that dose I didn't have any good effects. I emailed Jon and he didn't know what it was. I decided to leave it. I've had many kilos that were fine before then.

Later on, found the White MD. It was my favorite one yet. I had ordered maybe 5 or 6 when I got a kilo in (again same batch number. I checked because I wanted the exact same product.) I had cut my dose down to 10g since that bad batch of green hulu. I got the same flu-like symptoms as the OP of that thread. At first I thought it was weak kratom and I was in some sort of withdrawal but it was WAY more intense and awful than withdrawal (withdrawal for me is negligible even at these high doses). I continued to take it for a couple days and noticed that I felt the best around an hour before I redoses (typically 3 times a day, one at about 6am, 12-1pm, and 7-8pm). I skipped a dose to see what was up and the following morning, while I could tell I wanted to dose, it wasn't nearly as bad as it had been the day before. I dosed again with the same kratom and about an hour later I have the flu-like symptoms again. I switched to a backup strain I had from an old split kilo and immediately started to feel better.

Again, I emailed Jon and he said he hadn't heard anything about it, but he would add some extra to my next order, which he did throw in an extra 250g (I threw away the left over from the original kilo).

I've tried the White MD since then and gotten fine kratom without the sick feeling.

Then a buddy of mine tried him when his regular (Herbal Salvation) was out of stock. I recommended White MD as its what he usually gets and it was my favorite. He orders it, it comes in, same batch number as what I usually get, and he gets sick. I ended up buying it off him thinking it must be a fluke and sure enough, I get sick again. I ended up throwing that bag away as well. What was odd was that it was the same batch number as WMD that I currently had but it was very different kratom. The color and taste was different from what I had.

Then recently after he restocked (this was maybe a week ago), a friend of mine ordered some Green Hulu. She messages me the day before mine comes in (I got a split that included GH) and she tells me it is the worst kratom she has ever tasted. I'm worried, but decide to let it come in and just try it. I get it the day after (this was Thursday) and I mix up a glass. I couldn't get it down. Hands down the worst tasting kratom I have ever had in my life. Batch # is 102018 if you're curious. I have had some bad tasting kratom, but never anything that I couldn't use. I have not emailed Jon about this as of yet though. I got about halfway through the glass before I puke it back up. It had a very strong metallic taste to it. I don't dose with anything else because I don't know how much actually came out and how much stayed in and I didn't want wobbles. I began to feel nauseous about 10 minutes afterwards and it lasted about 2-3 hours.

I don't want to put Jon on blast here, because the truth is he has been my favorite vendor. Price and quality has been pretty damned consistent up until this last year or so and even then, I've had more kilos that were fine than I have that were bad. If I'm being honest, I've been considering branching out into other vendors (Mystic Island has piqued my curiosity) and if I'm being doubly honest, I think I will continue to order from RVA as well. I was just wondering if anyone else has had this experience with any of his strains? I'm understand things happen sometimes. There's not really any quality control with this stuff on the farmers end and that's a risk that we take as users, but I am concerned about the vastly different kratom with the same batch # (which may not even be Jon's fault) and I'm even more concerned with the flu like symptoms thats so far happened with 2 kilos.

Has anyone else experienced this with RVA kratom? There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to why its happening. Just luck of the draw.

And does anyone have any recommendations for good vendors and good strains? I typically only use whites and greens and I'd prefer to keep the price around 70-90 dollars if possible.

[Kaidensmom]

KOG, Okie, and Botanical Bunny are all consistently good. Especially when it comes to greens. I've never had a bad batch/experience with any of these 3 vendors. KOG also has some of the best whites around, in my opinion.

[whiffypants]

Thank you, Sknabc. Excellent post.

What was odd was that it was the same batch number as WMD that I currently had but it was very different kratom. The color and taste was different from what I had.

It's a minor point, but the significance of batch numbers is specific to a given vendor and can mean anything.

With RVA, the batch number is simply the date, so for two strains to have the same batch number is not that unusual, whereas it might be for another vendor. I haven't gotten any new RVA since early summer, but maybe others can confirm whether it means more than that.

As for whites around the same price point, I'd try SoCal, Mystic, or BB myself. I'm partial to MI White Maeng Da and Green Malay, and BB White MD Jong Kong and White Best especially.

Thanks again for the informative post!

[herbalhippie]

With RVA, the batch number is simply the date, so for two strains to have the same batch number is not that unusual, whereas it might be for another vendor.
!

That's correct. If, for instance, he stocks new Royal Bent, Gold Bali and Red Maeng Da today, they will all have the batch #102618

I have never had bad effects from RVA kratom. I've had one that was very good kratom but far too strong for me, this was a Green Hulu from last year. I put it up on Swapsell and it was snatched up pretty quickly.

I just got some Wild Green early this week from him, I'll open it up and give it a try.

[whiffypants]

KOG also has some of the best whites around, in my opinion.

I'd second this. I've become especially fond of their White Slippery Rock.

[WhiteAngelica]

Maybe y'all just don't like the taste of it? Also, 16g at once is incredibly high. When you said splitting that in half did nothing, I say: tolerance break. If 8g at one time didn't work for you, it's not the Hulu. It's you. Hit the reset button on yourself and return to it again and your experience might be greatly different.

PS: PPL are often linking stomach upset and vomiting to a vendor. Remember back in the day when that meant you took way too high of a dose? It's kind of hard to really overdose on something that will give you the wobbles or make you vom if excessively injested.

[Sama318]

WhiteAngelica is most def right on about sknabc takin way way too much a dose at once.... Most people with high kratom tolerances will also feel nausea and headaches and vomiting at that dose....Even 8 gs would make low tolerance people sick... I may know someone who has the same batch from RVA and thinks it tastes not great as kratom never does taste good... Not the best in alkaloid contect but not bad... But it seems to also be this time of year that the quality goes down in general and then by spring its fire again.... Difference in the seasonal harvests perhaps.... Time for sknabc to detox fo real... Enjoy...

[livi2fly]

I don't know if something suspicious is going on with all these recent posts or there really is something going on at RVA. But that high of a dose isn't unthinkable, I take 8g every morning and a total of 24g each day. I think we need to do some lab testing guys.

[whiffypants]

I'd tend to agree, Livi2fly: how high a dose is really depends on what that person is taking it for and their own tolerance, etc. That dose isn't the biggest I've seen by a LONG shot. Some of those folks over at r/quittingkratom... omg. Insane. No wonder they wanna quit.

But WhiteAngelica and Sama318 have a point. Let's say -- hypothetically -- there's a contaminant in a given batch in extremely small amounts, like parts per million. If you're taking a 16 gram dose you're consuming four times as much product as I am at my 4g dose.

That's neither bad nor good, we both need the dose we need, but simply as a matter of volume it means you're getting four times as much hypothetical contaminant as I am. That could easily explain why a certain batch hypothetically makes you sick but not me.

Then, to confuse the issue more, throw in some people who are more sensitive to a contaminant than others -- regardless of volume -- and you have people getting sick on half a gram while you at 16g are doing just fine.

I agree that testing is needed... but that's a whole 'nother bag of worms. What is being tested for, what those numbers mean, testing enough of each kilo to get a good picture of its actual chemistry, etc. and on top of that, how to keep that cost low enough to still make kratom affordable -- all of that is a huge Pandora's box of wtf right now.

Just my opinion, feel free to disagree. I don't think anyone's got good answers right now, to be honest.

[BallzDeep9]

I say: tolerance break. If 8g at one time didn't work for you, it's not the Hulu. It's you.

Gotta agree w/ WhiteAngelica here, I had to re-read the OP.. 16g doses 3X per day, dude was choking down 48 grams of powder a day?

Shittin' Bricks. How could your digestive system even function? Good Gawd.. look.. Kratom does not work that way. You cannot take more & more to get stronger effects.. there is a CEILING effect with kratom. The ol' Less Is More principle. Not a hard & fast RULE but a basic principle, isn't that Kratom 101 ??

Please, everybody's a human being with a stomach and bowels. I'm a pretty big guy 250 lbs and whenever I get up around 8g it's time for a T-break! Look, take any 100 kratom users. OUT of every 100 kratom-ites we're gonna have a 1-2 who "overdose" on kratom, get sick and blame it on a vendor. Herbal RVA - does a huge volume. He sold 200 orders recently in one evening!!

[magnifisense]

I agree that testing is needed... but that's a whole 'nother bag of worms. What is being tested for, what those numbers mean, testing enough of each kilo to get a good picture of its actual chemistry, etc. and on top of that, how to keep that cost low enough to still make kratom affordable -- all of that is a huge Pandora's box of wtf right now.

I'm pretty sure he meant testing of the offending batch(es). You'd want to test samples in question, RVA samples that are not in question, and a couple from another vendor.

[livi2fly]

I was speaking in reference to the said "bad batches". As well as other batches from RVA. It might be a specific indo supplier as well. I don't think the burden is on us to test them, but I would like to get to the bottom of it. Probably run some tests for Salmonella, E Coli, and Mit %. We can see if the common culprits are causing something or if it's something else. I'm having a hard time believing this many people are getting sick and nothing is being done by such a reputable vendor.

[sknabc]

I understand my dose was pretty high at the time, but it actually used to be higher and I worked it down to that point. At that time though, I had not experienced ill effects at that dose. Right now I'm at about 10.2g and its been there for a while. I have prior opiate experience and I actually started taking kratom daily when I was coming off of poppy seed tea (I highly recommend leaving that shit alone, seriously). Other strains didn't give me the wobbles at that level and once I got it low enough to not get wobbles I didn't feel anything at all. It was either wobbles or absolutely nothing.

[Psilocyberdemon]

@livi2fly I bought a batch from someone that said it made them sick and I thought, well maybe they didn’t sterilize it. So I did that and burned it and got pretty sick, which led me to believe it could be a mold issue. Can I mail it to you for testing? I burn 1.2g once a day so i know it wasn’t because I took too much. Flu like is best way to describe how I felt the rest of the day

[livi2fly]

Can I mail it to you for testing?

I think I might try to set something like that up. I don't know where to get it tested or how to go about it, but I'm going to look into it. I'm wanting to place my next order through RVA but this is all worrying me a little bit.

[Mcdouble]

Does RVA have a coupon code?

[whiffypants]

Can I mail it to you for testing?

I think I might try to set something like that up. I don't know where to get it tested or how to go about it, but I'm going to look into it. I'm wanting to place my next order through RVA but this is all worrying me a little bit.

Livi2fly, if you decide to do that, I would encourage you to accept samples -only- from people who have had multiple posts here and/or in other kratom communities, people that you -personally- find reliable, and not to accept any from third parties whom you don't know well, or whose only participation in the online kratom community has been to slam RVA.

I am concerned about the comparatively high number of new account/first post users that showed up here on this particular subject, some of which are also posting from proxies and VPNs, who obviously need to prove something in regard to RVA but are not content with using their own voice, or even their own IPs to do so. Who is to say they wouldn't adulterate a sample if they felt it would achieve their purposes? If they're okay with running alts, using proxies to evade bans, and using sockpuppets to unfairly amplify their voice... what's to stop them from adulterating a sample? Not a conscience, that's for sure.

Yet if/when you start accepting samples for testing, ALL you will have is that person's word that the sample they send you is actually RVA leaf and has not been adulterated in any way. You will have absolutely nothing else to vet them by, beyond their standing participation in the online kratom community. So make sure you pick your sample submitters well.

By way of contrast, Psilocyberdemon has many posts both here and on Reddit and has participated in the online kratom community for a while, and he's even submitted helpful personal research materials for others to use (like that long article on kratom potentiators, for example -- thanks Psilo!). I personally would feel -great- about that level of participation in the community: it speaks well of him. I have reason to believe OP is legit also, based on some non-public information I received as well as the information he posted publicly: it all speaks well of him too.

But that won't be true of everyone who offers to send you something to test.

So for your own sake and for RVA's sake, keep that in mind if you move forward with this, and make sure as best you can that the people whose samples you accept for testing are as aboveboard and honest in their own intentions as you are in yours... because not everyone is.

Just my 2 cents.

[livi2fly]

Does RVA have a coupon code?

Considering it's already some of the cheapest leaf around... No. They generally don't use coupons because, they are already giving you a deal. That's like asking for a discount at the dollar store.

And whiffy, I see what you're saying and I completely agree. I know there are some people out there who don't have any morals

[whiffypants]

Awesome, man. Good luck with your new project!

[Mcdouble]

Does RVA have a coupon code?

Considering it's already some of the cheapest leaf around... No. They generally don't use coupons because, they are already giving you a deal. That's like asking for a discount at the dollar store.

And whiffy, I see what you're saying and I completely agree. I know there are some people out there who don't have any morals

It is extremely well priced. It never hearts to ask though.

[BallzDeep9]

And whiffy, I see what you're saying and I completely agree.

yes totally agree 2nd what he's saying. RVA has many, jealous competitors out there.. Please start a separate thread for Lab Testing? With your proposal/ plans/ goals .. I'm not sure it's possible or work-able really, for very small samples.. But there HAS to be some option. University test Lab maybe? I have a few names, to get U started. Wonderland isn't one of them lol ..

[Brad frerichs]

I just ordered a kilo from RVA. I ain’t scared

[whiffypants]

I just ordered a kilo from RVA. I ain’t scared

[Psilocyberdemon]

@whiffypants thank you for vouching for me. I’ve had a lot of success with rva over the summer and have a lot of great product from them. At least 90% of what I’ve bought has been high quality for me, and it surprised me for a while because at that price I thought for sure it was too good to be true.

If anything, I think any vendor would want to know what it is in the batch or batches that is causing sickness so that they can communicate that to their supplier(s) and let them know where to pick up the slack, or change to a different source. Do dessicants really work, I can just put them in with the powder and that will help with moisture? We’ve had a lot of rain this fall.

[whiffypants]

No problem. I believe your behavior and contributions over time speak for themselves, and do so clearly. (I also sent a PM to Livi2fly about some related info; if you two decide to go into this together let me know and I'll share the same info with you directly.)

It's interesting that you bring up moisture, because my sneaking suspicion all along has been that the probable contaminant -- IF any -- is likely mold. It fits the entire situation perfectly: varying moisture levels across a single batch over time -- for example, a couple of months from Indo curing to US vendor repackaging -- can easily account for one huge lot or batch that makes just a handful of people very sick and others not at all. Between one part of a kilo being drier than another, which would give you varying spore counts across a single kilo, you also have the fact that some folks are intensely sensitized to very tiny amounts of environmental mold while others are completely unaffected.

And in the middle of all these variables you also have the fact that mold is everywhere, it grows at different rates in different circumstances, it can be measured but never completely eradicated, etc. Living in Florida for as many years as I did, you just learn to live with it -- but some can't.

And it explains everything in this situation so far, IMO, including the fact that the vendor who moves more leaf in the US than practically everyone else is the one getting possible sickness reports: the more leaf you move, if there's something wrong with it, that's going to show up with the biggest vendors first.

What it -doesn't- mean is that a specific vendor is at fault or has filthy packaging practices: cGMP over here isn't going to do jack shit about tarp curing in Indonesia. But mold -can- be tested for, and maybe that's where to start.

In the meantime, to answer your question, you absolutely -can- use dessicant packets. Several people here use them already, even HerbalHippie. If you're really serious about using dessicants to inhibit mold growth, you can spread your powder out in a shallow layer on very clean baking pan and put it in the oven on "keep warm" or 200F -- whatever your lowest setting is -- for a half-hour or so to dry it thoroughly before repackaging. (I wouldn't cook it higher or longer myself; I just want to dry it, not change its properties.)

So yeah. I think you're absolutely on the right track here.

[sknabc]

Yeah my goal here isn't to turn anyone off of RVA. Jon has been a pretty consistent and reliable supplier for a while for me. For the price he charges and the quality of the kratom, its really hard to beat. I am burning a dose from him as I type this now. I was just curious if its happened to anyone else as my information is limited to me and a friend.

[whiffypants]

No worries, Sknabc. You're good.