Using bulk kratom to make extract.

[Mckratom420]

I have quite a bit of bulk leaf that I will never touch. Is it hard making an extract? Any feedback would help.

[Kelleytoons]

You might look at my tincture thread (should be in the top five or six threads recently). viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9565

However, a tincture is not an extract per se. It's a way of processing your Kratom with alcohol to make it easily taken. The alcohol will also make the Kratom last forever (or nearly so) so if you are worried about that aspect it will definitely be a way of preservation. If you take the tincture and reduce it down further you can get close to making an extract (a true extract will require chemical processing with things that are dangerous or not ingestible, and equipment most of us do not have).

[Detuned]

But with alcohol same as with acid you are relasing or trying to squeeze out the alcaloids from the powder. For me that is what makes an extract, right?

[IjustFeltLikeRunnin’]

I’ve done a very basic “Red Bubble” process. I’ve used it about 3 times now on otherwise bunk leaf.

https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Kratom_ ... action_tek

The most time-consuming part of it, is the evaporation process. I use our Air Fryer Oven for that, with the fan set to high. You will probably still end up with some more gummy/resiny spots no matter how long you dry this stuff for though. I put this less dry stuff in an unsealed baggie with a bunch of those silica packets, and over time it dries out more. I also break little pieces off and add it to my herbal tea. The completely dry stuff I smash into crumbles.

I would highly recommend looking into silicone bake ware for this. I only have glass, and chiseling it out of there turns into a dangerous “projectiles-flying-needing-eye-protection” ordeal.

[Kelleytoons]

If you make a tincture using alcohol very little of the alcohol goes away (if you squeeze it out properly). So you are left with the same volume of solution as you started with. Yes, it "extracts" the goodness out of the powder, but if the volume doesn't shrink then you are left with taking as much of the liquid as you would if you had not strained it.

Most people think of extracts as the above post shows - a process by which you end up with something that is much smaller in volume than what you started with. Think of it this way - if you have milk and add chocolate to it you are "extracting" the chocolate from the original powder, but the volume is exactly the same (it's not a precise analogy because with Kratom you are filtering out the basic structure but the principle is the same).

Drying alcohol extracts is NOT an easy matter and can be dangerous. I would NOT recommend doing this indoors unless you have the very serious (and $$$) equipment necessary for it. A fire is not something to take likely and with high proof alcohol fire can easily occur.

[Roofdog]

If you make a tincture using alcohol very little of the alcohol goes away (if you squeeze it out properly). So you are left with the same volume of solution as you started with. Yes, it "extracts" the goodness out of the powder, but if the volume doesn't shrink then you are left with taking as much of the liquid as you would if you had not strained it.

Most people think of extracts as the above post shows - a process by which you end up with something that is much smaller in volume than what you started with. Think of it this way - if you have milk and add chocolate to it you are "extracting" the chocolate from the original powder, but the volume is exactly the same (it's not a precise analogy because with Kratom you are filtering out the basic structure but the principle is the same).

Drying alcohol extracts is NOT an easy matter and can be dangerous. I would NOT recommend doing this indoors unless you have the very serious (and $$$) equipment necessary for it. A fire is not something to take likely and with high proof alcohol fire can easily occur.

Agreed. I used an electric heating pad and left my glassware on that for a few hrs. That worked pretty good. Pain in the a$$ to scrape as stated above.

[Fhietra899]

I have quite a bit of bulk leaf that I will never touch. Is it hard making an extract? Any feedback would help.

It's easy to make simple extract of kratom. Get some 97% Alcohol, soak the powder into the alochol for 2-3 days, dry the concentrate of liquid, make sure its really dried.

[add to descartes]

does making an extract remove any unwanted alkaloids in the kratom, or is using an extract just a way to take "more" kratom but less actual powder? would taking an equivalent of let's say 10 grams, in extract form, be any qualitatively different than taking 10 grams normally? I'm not sure doing all the work of an extraction is worth it. plus doing water reductions on the stove always makes my apartment reek. if there was a way to isolate the mitra/7hm from the wobbloids, I'd give that a try, I have lots to substandard leaf to work with... but my knowledge of extracts is very limited so sorry for the potentially dumb questions.

[Kelleytoons]

The real problem, AFAIK, is that no one really knows the answers to your questions.

We can guess - but first of all you need to quantify HOW you are making the extract and what your final product will be. Most extracts use alcohol to try and extract the good stuff from the leaf/powder (you don't need more than 80 proof for the powder, but for the leaf higher would be required). The matter of how long you let it "cook" is in some debate - my herbologist says a minimum of four weeks (six is better) but I see a lot of folks trying their own do it only for a week. We know for a fact that with other herbs it DOES take 3-6 weeks to extract all that can be extracted, so I don't know why the same wouldn't be true of Kratom but without actual testing of the product you can only guess.

You then can filter out all the "dirt" (or just most of it - depends on your techniques which I have documented here). In theory you have gotten all you are going to get but, again, without testing you don't know. Some folks say that this process (of filtration) removes some of the goodness but I have seen no actual studies to prove this. The only studies I've seen are with tea made with water. In those cases about 35% of the good stuff comes through (another 15% or so if you use an acid like lemon) but we're only talking water and only for an hour at the most. Much of Kratom is not water soluble anyway, so I would say an educated guess is that using alcohol for at least four weeks HAS to be a lot more effective - perhaps as much as 90-99%. Again, who knows?

The big advantage of extracts is: 1) you do not have to swallow the dirt. An alcohol extract of, say, a tablespoon can be completely smooth (or very nearly so). Such an extract can be just as powerful as your normal dose but a lot easier to take. 2) it may work faster. The "breaking down" of the powder into good stuff is already done, so your stomach doesn't have to do it. Adding to alcohol (an agent that works directly into the blood) extracts usually hit within five minutes or so, making it easy to adjust your dose. 3) Easier to carry, take on the go. You don't need oblates, or extra fluid to cut the taste. Just an ounce (or less) of the extract carried in a small bottle will be easily swallowed when you are out and about.

I'm still in the process of experimenting (this week my first four week extracts will be done, followed by five and six week ones that I will then be testing) but so far I have found a TREMENDOUS effect in taking an extract with my capsules. I took one tablespoon (around 3 grams) of extract followed by about 3 grams of capsules and the effect lasted 8 hours and even at the end it was nearly as strong as the beginning. I've never had Kratom last that long (for me it's usually around four hours) nor remain that strong throughout. But, again, I'm still working on the process and will be reporting on it in my thread when I get better/more results.

[add to descartes]

thanks for the detailed response! i knew those 3 benefits you listed definitely figured in to why you'd use extract over plain leaf, but I didn't know if that was everything. personally I don't have an issue with taking more powder and have no need to travel with it. so other than the slight advantage of a potential quicker onset, it's not worth it for me, even without taking into account the extra price or effort put into making it diy. perhaps taking an extract sublingually and bypassing the gi tract would be effective? eating before or after always ruins it for me. I've heard of people taking powdered leaf sublingually, but thats a little too hardcore for me.

if only there was somehow a way to isolate the good alkaloids from the bad, that would be worthwhile on occasion. but then again one of the good things about kratom is the side effects prevent you from taking too much. I totally get that other people value extracts for the reasons you named, especially getting around the sheer volume of plant matter ingested...my body seems to have permanently adapted to take large quantities, I barely even notice the taste anymore.

so i'm not knocking it by any means. but for me I would probably just take a little extra regular leaf.

also it's surprising to me that it takes 6 weeks to do an alcohol extraction, but only a few hours for a water one, considering that's it's not water soluble as you mentioned.

[Kelleytoons]

If I didn't state already, I'm far from an expert. I'm only trying to distill (appropriately) the knowledge I've found both on the web and talking with people here in RL.

I do want to be clear there is a BIG difference between an extract and a concentrate. Most folks (including vendors) call the pills they sell "extracts" and that's definitely part of the truth, but in reality they are concentrates, where all the liquid (both water and alcohol) have been removed so there is almost nothing left but the good stuff. In that case a single pill can be equivalent to a TON of powder - in some cases far more than anyone should consume. At the very least a single pill would be as strong as ANYONE would need.

A tincture is an extract, but the alcohol/water still remains. The advantages I mentioned earlier (and which you don't need) pertain. But if you wanted to take a concentrated extract it would have a bigger advantage in that it's far more compact - you could literally have a month's worth in a tiny little pill bottle.

It's very expensive to make your own concentrates but it's possible. Most people do not bother. I like the tincture, particularly in combination with pills, as I mentioned earlier. It's a kick you can get no other way (unless you dose yourself two or three times).

As to why alcohol takes longer - it only takes longer to get more of the stuff out. Making tea only gets about 47% of the good stuff at most (assuming you also use a citric acid - only around 30% without that acid). You could, in 4-8 hours, get about the same from an alcohol tincture but to get the maximum amount you want to let it cook for six weeks (or even longer). I know for young people this seems like a HUGE waste of time, but for us old folks it ain't no big deal, as we are far too busy to worry about such things (I just let my tinctures cook and as a result I can open two or three up every week now for the remainder of the summer - it's only that initial time process but patience is a virtue :>).

[BallzDeep9]

IDK why this Topic isn't getting more Response... maybe folks just don't know Where To Start ??

I'm starting another Batch of my home brew, Kitchen Table Extract! . I'm using recipe's commonly found around the Internet. Below are a couple Links for some YouTube videos's these are Legit herbalists who have general herbal extract websites. Some of their information is very useful! I'm doing a combo Ethanol extraction, or aka "Dual Extract" of Ethanol, that also uses water +Acid.

As Kellytoons has recently posted, you can make a Tincture by reducing and then, keeping your final product a Liquid. To clear up these words, a QUOTE: "All tinctures are extracts, but not all extracts are tinctures!" - that's from 1 of the herbalists. Mountain Rose Herbs etc. Anyway... a KEY difference with Kratom, as opposed to many other herbs - Kratom Leaf is very tough. Extracting alkaloids from leaf, powdered or not... Is harder compared to, extracting flowers or mushrooms or many other plants.

So I'm using Everclear (Clear Springs is cheaper, same 190 proof!) BUT, I feel like a full 95% alcohol isn't necessary... Yet, I want something stronger than 70 proof (only 35% alcohol) So... I split the difference. I want 70% Alcohol (would be 140 proof). I Do the math, and mix about half n half my Clear Springs, with my New Amsterdam 70 proof Lemon Vodka... I'm using the amount recommended by herbalists: Doing a "1 to 5" Extract. 100 grams kratom powder, with 500 ml ethanol. Using a nice Quart size Mason jar. This is a good quality, Ammo Red Vein kratom, that I imported direct from Ammo!



LINK: Mountain Rose Herbs -- https://blog.mountainroseherbs.com/guid ... s-extracts

Folk (Maceration) Extraction Method - VIDEO -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt-lrzjzivg

[Kelleytoons]

I hate to say where my experiments have gone... but I will.

So after going back and forth about alcohol content I ended up buying a Source Turbo, which is essentially a machine for reducing the alcohol in any tincture. It does this under a vacuum, so the heat source can remain low (under vacuum ethanol boils at around 70 degrees Fahrenheit, so it won't hurt the alkaloids any). It can reduce a tincture made with ethanol in under two hours, and reduce it down to 95% or even solids. The "catch" is that it requires a much higher alcohol content, at least 190 proof. So I bit the bullet and started all over on my tinctures using 100% ethanol.

The first immediate thing I noticed is the tincture is MUCH cleaner - I suspect that using a mix of alcohol and water means the particulate is suspended in the water (it does NOT dissolve). That makes it a bitch to get out but with the 100% alcohol the result is clear and clean (so one point for it).

I was worried at first that alcohol alone wouldn't get all the alkaloids but found a couple of studies that show that is not the case. Compared with water, ethanol is about 2-3x as effective in pulling out ALL the "good stuff". The problem is time - you really can't heat up 100% ethanol much without making it dangerous. The studies I saw used an ASE process for both the water and ethanol in the tests, and this was able to be accomplished quickly but that means you need special equipment to force the fluid under pressure into the leaf (and that is way out of my league).

So it does, if you will excuse the expression, boil down to time and based on all that I've read I do not think you can make a decent tincture in any less than three weeks - and more seems better (most folks agree that six weeks is the minimum). I am currently experimenting with using the Source Turbo on two, three, four, five AND six week tinctures to see if this is indeed true and to nail down how long it will take.

Once the ST is run you can end up with a VERY small extract - you can even take it all the way down to a solid, if you want, but my goal is to get the 10 ounces or so of 60 grams down to less than half an ounce. And then, because I don't want a flammable liquid (alcohol at over 50% is VERY flammable - they consider any alcohol diluted to less than that NOT to be flammable) I will dilute to about an ounce. At that rate 1/2 teaspoon is all I will need for a dose of 5grams, and at that small an amount even nasty tasting Kratom should be indistinguishable mixed with an ounce or less of OJ (or whatever floats your boat).

I realize that many folks will not want to spend the money for the ST - it runs around $600 - but the alternative is to either use a LARGE dose (around an ounce for that same 5 grams and even in an entire glass of OJ that's pretty nasty) or to try and evaporate the alcohol OUTSIDE (never inside) in a pan (the larger the surface area the better). If you go this route make sure you use at least 190 proof, as the same processes that keep 50/50 or less of alcohol mixes from being flammable also mean that it evaporates VERY slowly (so you might be looking at a total of months of making a tincture).

I plan on reporting on all of this in about another month (when I will have a LOT more information - my oldest tincture now is just a week).

[MycatTimmy]

______

[basedsecrete]

I’ve done a very basic “Red Bubble” process. I’ve used it about 3 times now on otherwise bunk leaf.

https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Kratom_ ... action_tek

The most time-consuming part of it, is the evaporation process. I use our Air Fryer Oven for that, with the fan set to high. You will probably still end up with some more gummy/resiny spots no matter how long you dry this stuff for though. I put this less dry stuff in an unsealed baggie with a bunch of those silica packets, and over time it dries out more. I also break little pieces off and add it to my herbal tea. The completely dry stuff I smash into crumbles.

I would highly recommend looking into silicone bake ware for this. I only have glass, and chiseling it out of there turns into a dangerous “projectiles-flying-needing-eye-protection” ordeal.

That stuff looks delicious.

[MycatTimmy]

I’m following this thread closely as I’d like to have some tinctures myself. So I started two tinctures, a red and a green using your recipe Kelleytoons . Sounds like I need to start over using Everclear this time

[Kelleytoons]

I’m following this thread closely as I’d like to have some tinctures myself. So I started two tinctures, a red and a green using your recipe Kelleytoons . Sounds like I need to start over using Everclear this time

Well - you might or might not want to wait and see what happens with my experiments <g>. But it's up to you.

The only real advantage in using Everclear is you may end up with cleaner tinctures, assuming you aren't going to get a machine like the Source Turbo (in which case I wouldn't recommend Everclear but buy 100% ethanol, as you can recycle it for a long, LONG time). Remember that even Everclear at, say, 190 proof (which is about the strongest you can buy) will be 15% water, and thus may end up with some of that same suspension issues. I think if I were choosing between vodka and Everclear I'd stick with vodka - if you aren't going the ST route I don't think I'd bother worrying too much about getting out all the "stuff" (if I didn't mention it above I have an easy way of doing that but it doesn't involve the AeroPress).

In terms of the ST (and 100% alcohol) I'll know a lot more in a few weeks (and will post - at the time I'll also show my long term vodka tinctures and even a video showing my straining method).

[MycatTimmy]

Okay Kelleytoons I’ll keep them going. Would also love to know your straining method as I don’t have an Aeropress yet. Thank you for being willing to do these experiments. It’s how we all learn new things
I was also wondering if you could put it through the soaking process twice in order to make it stronger than 5g per ounce ? Say after 6 weeks you strain out the 50g of Kratom leaving you with your standard 5g/oz. After straining could you then add 50g of the same fresh powder and soak it for another 6 weeks ? Would you then have a 5g per half ounce ? Or would you have reached the saturation point of the vodka with the first soak ? I need someone smarter than me to weigh in here please

[Kelleytoons]

It's just a guess (although I'll have hard data soon) but I think the problem with "super soaking" is going to be that water in the vodka. Even after you strain you will be left with particulate which just isn't going away and will thus not allow you to gain much with a second soak. Now - if you use 100% ethanol (NOT Everclear) you might avoid that issue - that's what I will know more about when I start straining THOSE.

And I actually WILL start this week - I had forgotten my plan was now to do a one week soak and then a two and three week all of the same strain to then compare. As it turns out, it will be more like a 10 day soak, then a 18 day soak, and then a 26 day soak but the idea is the same. And when I deal with the straining of the 100% ethanol I'll try and remember to do a video of both it as well as at least one of my vodka soaks (I still have four or five of those - I'll most likely throw them away but I didn't need the jars until my second batch of ethanol arrives, which should also be this week).

So - perhaps Thursday I'll put something together and then post a link (assuming I can't embed a video here - I've never seen one on these forums but perhaps that's possible). That will also be my first pass with the Source Turbo so I might record some video of that as well.

(Actually, now that I think about it, I might shoot some video today for the vodka strain, just to show you and to show you the difference with the ethanol. I'm not playing tennis until this evening so I have lots of time. If I do I'll post it on this thread soonest).

[brave777]

I’ve done a very basic “Red Bubble” process. I’ve used it about 3 times now on otherwise bunk leaf.

https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Kratom_ ... action_tek

The most time-consuming part of it, is the evaporation process. I use our Air Fryer Oven for that, with the fan set to high. You will probably still end up with some more gummy/resiny spots no matter how long you dry this stuff for though. I put this less dry stuff in an unsealed baggie with a bunch of those silica packets, and over time it dries out more. I also break little pieces off and add it to my herbal tea. The completely dry stuff I smash into crumbles.

I would highly recommend looking into silicone bake ware for this. I only have glass, and chiseling it out of there turns into a dangerous “projectiles-flying-needing-eye-protection” ordeal.

Will Coffee grinder turn this into powder or its to resiny and gummy? Iwould think if there is a way to dry it better the coffee grinder might do the trick?

[BallzDeep9]

I hate to say where my experiments have gone... but I will.

So after going back and forth about alcohol content I ended up buying a Source Turbo,

Oh Wow... You're in a whole 'nuther League here, now. When it comes to making Extract.

Yeah those things, by a company: ExtractCraft - cost $600 and it's the small version, like you say a coffee maker size. Only holds 3 ml liquid ?? Which is enough for small personal batch. But I would imagine, difficult to create enough for commercial sales.

I'm going to let my Batch (using 70% alcohol, see above), in a Quart Jar, 110 grams, 500 ml Ethanol - Sit for three weeks. Give it a shake every few days, (the Jar looks black!) Then get to the more tricky part, heating, filtering, reducing... I'll keep posting mine here, so anyone can follow along.

[IjustFeltLikeRunnin’]

Will Coffee grinder turn this into powder or its to resiny and gummy? Iwould think if there is a way to dry it better the coffee grinder might do the trick?

I think a coffee grinder would be usable on this. The stuff I smash up is pretty dang dry, (though I still put desiccant packets in the baggie with it too, and occasionally have to break up chunks that start sticking together). But I also think it would pulverize it into oblivion, and create a very fine layer of dust that would stick to the sides and the blades and just go to waste.

I use parchment paper and a hammer, and dump it into a baggie after I’ve smashed it up.

[Kelleytoons]

I hate to say where my experiments have gone... but I will.

So after going back and forth about alcohol content I ended up buying a Source Turbo,

Oh Wow... You're in a whole 'nuther League here, now. When it comes to making Extract.

Yeah those things, by a company: ExtractCraft - cost $600 and it's the small version, like you say a coffee maker size. Only holds 3 ml liquid ?? Which is enough for small personal batch. But I would imagine, difficult to create enough for commercial sales.

I'm going to let my Batch (using 70% alcohol, see above), in a Quart Jar, 110 grams, 500 ml Ethanol - Sit for three weeks. Give it a shake every few days, (the Jar looks black!) Then get to the more tricky part, heating, filtering, reducing... I'll keep posting mine here, so anyone can follow along.

It holds 300ml - so not a HUGE batch, certainly not a production run, but plenty enough for most folks who buy these things. Since all my tinctures are around that (about 10 ounces) it works out perfect for me. But I will post my own progress and that would be great for folks to see both.

(And they DO make a production size version but it's around 2.5K so nothing I'd ever consider).

[BallzDeep9]

I would highly recommend looking into Silicone bake ware for this. I only have glass, and chiseling it out of there turns into a dangerous “projectiles-flying-needing-eye-protection” ordeal.

lol. Not looking forward to my paint scraper, hammer and chisel routine... So yes! I bought a Silicone Bake Pan off Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Kqwbewq-Silicone ... 0949H23QB/

Haven't used it yet, but looks very similar to the Philly Kratom silicone in this Extract Tips! VIDEO -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayBUUK_6e_Q

Worth watching. Around 11:15 he gets into the Silicone thing, with quotes like.. "Crack It Up!" and.. "Its Like a Burrito" Gotta love this guy. Great vendor too!

[Elle007]

I have a thought about it he popular red bubble recipe; If freezing breaks the cell wall, releasing alkaloids, and the acid seperates the alkaloids seperate the alkaloids from the plant matter, wouldn't it make more sense to add the acid after the kratom hqs been frozen? As I understand the process, the concentration of alkaloids available for extraction would be higher after it thaws from freezer. Have I misunderstood the chemistry?

[IjustFeltLikeRunnin’]

I have a thought about it he popular red bubble recipe; If freezing breaks the cell wall, releasing alkaloids, and the acid seperates the alkaloids seperate the alkaloids from the plant matter, wouldn't it make more sense to add the acid after the kratom hqs been frozen? As I understand the process, the concentration of alkaloids available for extraction would be higher after it thaws from freezer. Have I misunderstood the chemistry?

I add it both times. Before freezing and during the “simmering down” process.

[Elle007]

Right? Just makes more sense! But I'm no chemist!!